RNM
A bit of disagreement. If the goal is .05% THD or less from the electronics each unit need not contribute the same portion. The reproduction method (CD etc.) and the power amplifier are the major contributors. It is easier to get very low distortion from all the small signal stages.
The second issue is the use of THD is a bit limiting as the figure of merit. In practice what is often called THD also includes noise. This actually may be a better measure as a unit with no actual harmonic distortion could theoretically have only a 30 dB signal to noise ratio. I suspect there are forms of distortion that are neither harmonically or intermodulation expressed.
Thirdly one of my father's friends was such a car collector that he opened his own museum. After he passed away I was doing sound for a vintage car race and his widow (also my fathers lifelong friend) offered me the use of appropriate vehicles for the venue. So I understand why you so like your Bently. I lean a bit more to what I would consider a more modest version of a comfortable car. I did consider an upscale one but uptime and appearance to my clients also was a factor. The deciding issues were how much electronics as they tend to become obsolete well before the rest of the car and what surprised me a bit was the ability to find and read gauges! I had the opertunity to rent or otherwise drive many current car models and found that my preference is for more road feel as I live around a series of river valleys and few roads run straight. One experience was a tree lined road hiding a hairpin curve. I have driven in your area and so I appreciate your choice I don't think it would fit my needs.
ES
A bit of disagreement. If the goal is .05% THD or less from the electronics each unit need not contribute the same portion. The reproduction method (CD etc.) and the power amplifier are the major contributors. It is easier to get very low distortion from all the small signal stages.
The second issue is the use of THD is a bit limiting as the figure of merit. In practice what is often called THD also includes noise. This actually may be a better measure as a unit with no actual harmonic distortion could theoretically have only a 30 dB signal to noise ratio. I suspect there are forms of distortion that are neither harmonically or intermodulation expressed.
Thirdly one of my father's friends was such a car collector that he opened his own museum. After he passed away I was doing sound for a vintage car race and his widow (also my fathers lifelong friend) offered me the use of appropriate vehicles for the venue. So I understand why you so like your Bently. I lean a bit more to what I would consider a more modest version of a comfortable car. I did consider an upscale one but uptime and appearance to my clients also was a factor. The deciding issues were how much electronics as they tend to become obsolete well before the rest of the car and what surprised me a bit was the ability to find and read gauges! I had the opertunity to rent or otherwise drive many current car models and found that my preference is for more road feel as I live around a series of river valleys and few roads run straight. One experience was a tree lined road hiding a hairpin curve. I have driven in your area and so I appreciate your choice I don't think it would fit my needs.
ES
I'll stick with Tom Swift. "I believe he has a degree, but he never uses it," was the lad's answer. And to think I always credited Fr. Crowley.
BTW the wife and I just watched an episode of "House Hunters Intl" where a guy couple (who appeared on camera at least three times wearing the same outfit) bought a flat in Amsterdam center. We're planning a retirement year abroad and this is on the list now.
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I for one can't find a real reason to at all include fine art in the discussion of audio, there is no real good analogy there. Fine art is really in the eye of the beholder, I may like a Monet and consider that fine art and someone else may reference Andy Warhol which I can't stomach. So there is no definitive definition of fine art that we can use for audio purposes.
In audio except for certain music styles we are looking for as close to reproduction of an ideal acoustic sound, as exact to a live sound as possible. I don't know any other metric that you can use and have so many come to agreement.
As far as JC making judgements of early SS vs tube equipment based on listening through K horns well I take that as a real dilemma as I can't stand what Mr. Klipsch actually sold as high quality sounding speakers, they are a fail in my eyes. FR of those early K horns are nothing to speak to, that is a terrible reference point to determine the sound of the electronics. I have nothing against the design prowess and engineering of Mr. Klipsch, however I don't think his commercial designs were all that great to speak of.
So the reference points that some of the interactions here use are not always the same, it is hard to take these personal preferences as gospel, or the basis for comparative discussion.
Brad,
Your not alone in having those discussion, mine are not in the electronics field, you would talk over my head so fast it would just go into total confusion. we all seem to have our specialties where we can drive those away fast when that is the goal! It takes much more effort to bring the conversation down to the level that others can understand and join the discussion rather than lose others in technical speak.
Those with unlimited finances can buy whatever they like, many times for the sole purpose of one upping those others at the same level. It surely doesn't seem to bring much joy to those it seems, their problems are just greater financially, their love of life and contribution to others has no greater effect. Only those who are easily influenced by celebrity follow what those people have to say. That type of fame is fleeting, not the same as the lasting influence of some like a Nicoli Tesla or Albert Einstein.
In audio except for certain music styles we are looking for as close to reproduction of an ideal acoustic sound, as exact to a live sound as possible. I don't know any other metric that you can use and have so many come to agreement.
As far as JC making judgements of early SS vs tube equipment based on listening through K horns well I take that as a real dilemma as I can't stand what Mr. Klipsch actually sold as high quality sounding speakers, they are a fail in my eyes. FR of those early K horns are nothing to speak to, that is a terrible reference point to determine the sound of the electronics. I have nothing against the design prowess and engineering of Mr. Klipsch, however I don't think his commercial designs were all that great to speak of.
So the reference points that some of the interactions here use are not always the same, it is hard to take these personal preferences as gospel, or the basis for comparative discussion.
Brad,
Your not alone in having those discussion, mine are not in the electronics field, you would talk over my head so fast it would just go into total confusion. we all seem to have our specialties where we can drive those away fast when that is the goal! It takes much more effort to bring the conversation down to the level that others can understand and join the discussion rather than lose others in technical speak.
Those with unlimited finances can buy whatever they like, many times for the sole purpose of one upping those others at the same level. It surely doesn't seem to bring much joy to those it seems, their problems are just greater financially, their love of life and contribution to others has no greater effect. Only those who are easily influenced by celebrity follow what those people have to say. That type of fame is fleeting, not the same as the lasting influence of some like a Nicoli Tesla or Albert Einstein.
Of course the late Harry Pearson insisted on the comparison to live music in real spaces as the criterion. But even to begin to conquer the circle of confusion by hearing what the recording engineer was trying to do is a reasonable condition too.
As for Klipsch, it borders on being a cult. I did some work for them years ago and they flat-out told me there was no way to take cost out of an existing product without compromising the "gestalt" in some way that would do violence to the founder's vision. But no one could articulate what the details of that vision were. I suspected there was some sort of induction ritual, if one advanced far enough to be a prospective acolyte.
But of course Paul K.'s beloved horns are super-sensitive and hence revealing of things going on in electronics at low levels. Greg Timbers is also keen on horns (he was terminated recently in case you hadn't heard, his position "eliminated").
With Klipsch, they managed to listen to my look-alike prototype for enough time to admit it was acoustically identical, before opening it up and letting out the magic smoke. If they had bothered to make the suggested changes they would have made 80k more profits per month, based on their stated volumes. I got 10k for the work, and of course they never did anything with it.
As far as explaining things, some very brilliant people, Richard Feynman comes to mind, loved to figure new ways to explain difficult concepts to people who were not specialists. Others seem to have no flair for this at all, or resent being asked and grow impatient. I won't mention any names.
I'll soon be doing the same by talking about the prowess of the Irish rugby team.
It 'l be a lonely winter!!
But back to on topic [
:roll eyes:] I do agree with Mr Marsh .... and also JC...simply because I have heard their products and instinctively know where they are coming from. On the other hand I equally understand SY's stance, despite the fact that he has designed, given free-gratis those designs and aided some of their builders. Certainly beats being no more than a critic.....qualified or not!
IMHO the link is in what owning a fine example of either means in terms of social kudos. The next social tier down is aspiring to own an example. The tier below that is demonstrating appreciation of the art. Ironically, the bottom of the ladder is often the artist, at the time of creating the art (or the designer at the time of designing the electronics).
Social tokens like wine, food, cars, I think have a similar social place.
It took me ages to realise the link !
The rumor said that they are using some kind of snake oil, too.Not all. There are rumors about a tiny village at the french atlantic coastline who resist.
I Agree with Richard about the "all system" point of view.
One of my care is to ensure that SR in each device's input never reach 1/10 of the SR of the electronic inside. Considering the phases behavior of the entire system, it imply very high slew rate for the power amplifier.
Well, we usually take a big margin for loads impedances, SNR, Harmonic distortions. I think the same care has to be taken for slew-rates.
One of my care is to ensure that SR in each device's input never reach 1/10 of the SR of the electronic inside. Considering the phases behavior of the entire system, it imply very high slew rate for the power amplifier.
Well, we usually take a big margin for loads impedances, SNR, Harmonic distortions. I think the same care has to be taken for slew-rates.
Brad,
Don't take me for being anti horn, that wouldn't be accurate at all. I may not be working in that area right now but it is something I have spent many years doing. I just see so many things wrong with K-Horns that I just can't consider that anything but a nostalgic thing at this point, not a leader in anything new or advancing the art.
I may disagree at times with E. Geddes but I think we are more in agreement than the other way around. Full horn loaded systems just don't really fit in the normal home so anything to do with horns is really a hybrid horn dynamic driver combination today. I just don't see the point of putting large bass horns in my house at this point, I don't want a room full of large pieces, RNM's Marsh class A amplifiers would fall into that category. I'll take on of Ostripper's CFA amps in a practical chassis design and be more than happy with the sound of a great class AB amp. With a set of horns you would be running in class A so no real advantage on a high efficiency system to a monstrous class A amp over a class AB that never leaves the class A range.
Don't take me for being anti horn, that wouldn't be accurate at all. I may not be working in that area right now but it is something I have spent many years doing. I just see so many things wrong with K-Horns that I just can't consider that anything but a nostalgic thing at this point, not a leader in anything new or advancing the art.
I may disagree at times with E. Geddes but I think we are more in agreement than the other way around. Full horn loaded systems just don't really fit in the normal home so anything to do with horns is really a hybrid horn dynamic driver combination today. I just don't see the point of putting large bass horns in my house at this point, I don't want a room full of large pieces, RNM's Marsh class A amplifiers would fall into that category. I'll take on of Ostripper's CFA amps in a practical chassis design and be more than happy with the sound of a great class AB amp. With a set of horns you would be running in class A so no real advantage on a high efficiency system to a monstrous class A amp over a class AB that never leaves the class A range.
My wife's family is Dutch (mothers side from Bergen and father from Nijmegen, Jacco). Amsterdam is fabulous - lots of history and fantastic restaurants. Always amazes me how the hell such a small country had such s big impact on the world.
When I joined Philips, that whole side of the family were ecstatic. I went from being a honorable Dutchman to a real family member. LOL.
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I'll soon be doing the same by talking about the prowess of the Irish rugby team.
It 'l be a lonely winter!!
But back to on topic [
I do agree with Mr Marsh .... and also JC...simply because I have heard their products and instinctively know where they are coming from. On the other hand I equally understand SY's stance, despite the fact that he has designed, given free-gratis those designs and aided some of their builders. Certainly beats being no more than a critic.....qualified or not!
Very good game. Just watched here on TV while drinking an 'Old Speckled Hen' or three.
In the other match, Romania did not win against Italy, but they have really come up in my view. Seems some of the smaller nations have really stepped up to the plate this World Cup.
No, horns can work, certainly. And hybrid electrostats can work, but they do have significant issues in fine structure of the frequency response. And they are not boundary effects --- the one ML I'm thinking of shows these in anechoic measurements.
I grew up with a small but visible Dutch expat community and worked at 16 for a certain Mr. Van de Loo. I joke sometimes that I have spent more time in the last 20 yr. in Grande Place Brussels than downtown Boston.
From day one I thought K-horns sounded like s***, ironic his campaign against Bose the other side of the turd.
Horns? Did somebody mention horns! That is pretty much all I use for stadiums. Kind of makes the small direct radiator fill speakers seem inadequate. They even work at homes with large listening spaces. But for the vast majority effective horns are way to big and limited in effective frequency range. But there have been significant improvements in horn design and still some work being done. The 3D printers have had a major impact in the design and improvement cycle.
Now Greg Timbers getting fired is just more bad news. Even though he is a different part of Harman than I deal with it still stinks to me.
My next get together with the pro folks is where I mention the margins are too small compared to all of their competitors. (Not just getting rid of talent, but keeping more of the selling price!)
That is pretty much all I use for stadiums. Kind of makes the small direct radiator fill speakers seem inadequate. They even work at homes with large listening spaces. But for the vast majority effective horns are way to big and limited in effective frequency range. But there have been significant improvements in horn design and still some work being done. The 3D printers have had a major impact in the design and improvement cycle.Now Greg Timbers getting fired is just more bad news. Even though he is a different part of Harman than I deal with it still stinks to me.
My next get together with the pro folks is where I mention the margins are too small compared to all of their competitors. (Not just getting rid of talent, but keeping more of the selling price!)
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