Ahh? only the cables are added in the feedback loop with a Kelvin connection. I doubt loudspeakers are "voiced" with a particular cable in mind. You are also prejudging the difference/preference issue.
Here to save us from quantum meltdown?
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I wouldn't worry about the noise from the speaker.
The only worry I'd have is the stability of the system if the speaker cable is 15 feet or so. Then, you have to consider the delay caused by the line to load mismatch.
For a self powered speaker, I wouldn't even worry about it. As a matter of fact, I don't worry about it with my 90 foot cables either..
jn
Complete loudspeaker systems are voiced from a set up using what ever the designer pretty much wants to use. Some manufacturers standardize the setup. All use some cable between the amplifier and stand alone loudspeaker system. (Duh!) Now as to how picky things get the folks I know will when designing a crossover will use a switch box to get close but then substitute the actual production parts to verify the results.
Now in an amplified loudspeaker system there is a specific amplifier and driver. So the wire loss is much less but still present.
HOWEVER a magnet/voice coil loudspeaker is a current activated drive. So the resistance of the connecting cable is an important part of the circuit.
This came up a a standards meeting. The issue was adding a clause that the interconnecting cable resistance must be 5% or less of the rated impedance of the loudspeaker system. One fellow opined that as you measure the voltage at the loudspeaker terminals this was not important. The response from one of the other guys was quite simple and left the issue very clear. All he said was "damping factor."
Using a feedback cable drops the damping factor particularly at higher frequencies. This is often outside the intended design values for a driver. So don't expect it to behave as it does with the wiring loss.
No. as usual I found there was a lot of speculation without even the basic knowledge.
However I recall in the early days of microwave semiconductor amplifiers there was one company that made very low noise room temperature amplifiers, unlike any of their competitors. They learned that when the device geometry shrank below a certain size, the noise level dropped.
Instability at 15ft, with what, capacitor wire to a Phase Linear .....
Some really bad cable to do such at 1M......
Hurray,
A conversation about a real application. Real science and electronics all at the same time!
Simon,
Do you really think it is that critical which wire you are using for the speaker connection if it is of adequate size, gauge and construction, not a simple zip cord, but some form of let's say a braided conductor with a good insulator, not Teflon and is terminated correctly? You could just go with some Litz wire but that is probably not necessary as we have had this discussion of speaker wire so many times now. I mean voicing a speaker should not be that sensitive or specific that it would need a specific wire brand, that is just asking to much. In PA applications this is just not going to happen and there we would be more interested in the wire type and construction and length than a specific brand or exact wire.
A conversation about a real application. Real science and electronics all at the same time!
Simon,
Do you really think it is that critical which wire you are using for the speaker connection if it is of adequate size, gauge and construction, not a simple zip cord, but some form of let's say a braided conductor with a good insulator, not Teflon and is terminated correctly? You could just go with some Litz wire but that is probably not necessary as we have had this discussion of speaker wire so many times now. I mean voicing a speaker should not be that sensitive or specific that it would need a specific wire brand, that is just asking to much. In PA applications this is just not going to happen and there we would be more interested in the wire type and construction and length than a specific brand or exact wire.
I use 10 gauge stranded twisted pair for low frequency drivers and 14 gauge for HF drivers. In a stadium one tweeter got wired with the 10 gauge by mistake. At 150' you could here the difference in just the HF driver. It by ear had less HF than the adjacent loudspeakers. (You don't want to know what it cost to fix this!)
Even in stadium work I specify which type of cable including gauge, stranding and dielectric. It makes a clear difference in the tune up measurements when the specified cable is used or someone has tried a substitute.
This is not the golden ears stuff it is very clear measurement stuff. Now 2 db at 12,000 Hz on a 400' cable run is easy to detect. Does it matter at 1 foot? Probably not, but at what length does it become an issue?
BTY 12,000 Hz is the best HF response I have ever gotten in a large venue due to air loss. At closer distances you have more HF so there are some factors that will increase cable difference sensitivities.
type of wire is important when voicing as you have to get the speaker voiced close to what is going to be used with it in the market place. We used to used avg, good and top end as predicated by the market for voicing, mostly to get a feel for what is, as I'm not too hung-up on golden wire, but I'm also very much aware there are big differences in subjective listening between wire...
No silver for me ....
Not Air loss alone, wouldnt reflection/phase issues from multiple drivers play too ? agree on the different gauge choices for bass vs topend
No , it's means we have to test for every scenario, amp at speakers included and then you have to have the "guru" setup ...
I will also submit not all amplifiers work well up against the speaker, I'm suggesting micro-phonics, this lead to sonically special stones placed on your amplifier at boutique prices per Kilo...
I will also submit not all amplifiers work well up against the speaker, I'm suggesting micro-phonics, this lead to sonically special stones placed on your amplifier at boutique prices per Kilo...
My opinion is that a well designed speaker that has a benign impedance curve should not be that sensitive to wire type, that is to me a function of a very reactive crossover or speaker impedance problem. No zip cord but no $1,000 per foot wire needed either.
Be back in a number of hours to see where this conversation goes.
Be back in a number of hours to see where this conversation goes.
It has been shown that the speaker current which is nonlinear, causes a voltage drop across the cable impedance meaning an extra distortion at the speaker terminals.
However based on the information about current driven speakers, it is unclear whether this apparent distortion adds to or subtracts from the distortion coming out of the speaker physically.
However based on the information about current driven speakers, it is unclear whether this apparent distortion adds to or subtracts from the distortion coming out of the speaker physically.
To add a slight slant on what needs to be done, looked at, depending on the state of evolution of the playback setup, I'll mention on a few things about my extremely basic PC setup. Inside the active monitors a bare minimum chip amp, which, horror of horrors, is single voltage rail only. So coupling electro's everywhere - how bad can the sound get, ?
In relatively untouched state ... from cold, very flat midfi sound - but a good thrashing over an hour or two brings it to life, quite presentable sound on 'good', and 'bad' recordings, well balanced in that very little stands out as being 'wrong'.
Did a first round of tweaking, basically bypassing most of the crummy mechanical bits and pieces ... resulting in major improvement in cold, turn on performance - a well recorded classical piece has impact, vitality, violins sound like they're supposed to. But poorer recordings now sound dirtier at this point - what has happened is that more low level detail is now coming through cleanly, meaning a well scrubbed recording immediately presents well, whereas the 'rough' recording is showing the problems innate in the recording more obviously.
And this continues to be the case when everything is warmed up - clean recordings are a doddle, but the dodgy ones are hovering on the edge of being unpleasant, depending on everything. This is how a lot of systems end up, of course ...
But, this is halfway there ... the remaining audible distortions resulting purely from the playback mechanism are intermodulating with the now more clearly heard flaws in the recording, meaning unpleasant listening ... unless, I go to more extreme lengths to reduce interference effects - much more than I had to do before the tweaking.
So, one can either give up further improving, or, endeavour to eliminate more of the audible misbehaviour of the playback components - this is, as I said, a halfway point ....
The basic point is, that it's relatively straightforward to get a system to a point where 'good' recordings sound very impressive, and 'poor' ones can be a real torture - but the really interesting exercise is progressing a setup to be more "robust" in its ability to play recordings - that the 'poor' recordings are able to acquit themselves in the best light ...
?In relatively untouched state ... from cold, very flat midfi sound - but a good thrashing over an hour or two brings it to life, quite presentable sound on 'good', and 'bad' recordings, well balanced in that very little stands out as being 'wrong'.
Did a first round of tweaking, basically bypassing most of the crummy mechanical bits and pieces ... resulting in major improvement in cold, turn on performance - a well recorded classical piece has impact, vitality, violins sound like they're supposed to. But poorer recordings now sound dirtier at this point - what has happened is that more low level detail is now coming through cleanly, meaning a well scrubbed recording immediately presents well, whereas the 'rough' recording is showing the problems innate in the recording more obviously.
And this continues to be the case when everything is warmed up - clean recordings are a doddle, but the dodgy ones are hovering on the edge of being unpleasant, depending on everything. This is how a lot of systems end up, of course ...
But, this is halfway there ... the remaining audible distortions resulting purely from the playback mechanism are intermodulating with the now more clearly heard flaws in the recording, meaning unpleasant listening ... unless, I go to more extreme lengths to reduce interference effects - much more than I had to do before the tweaking.
So, one can either give up further improving, or, endeavour to eliminate more of the audible misbehaviour of the playback components - this is, as I said, a halfway point ...
.The basic point is, that it's relatively straightforward to get a system to a point where 'good' recordings sound very impressive, and 'poor' ones can be a real torture - but the really interesting exercise is progressing a setup to be more "robust" in its ability to play recordings - that the 'poor' recordings are able to acquit themselves in the best light ...
Ribbons are the only speakers I'm aware of with resistor like impedance , so by your definition , what now ..?
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