You're the one who made the claim. It's on you to support it. If you're going to take the usual chickencrap route of making claims, not substantiating them and telling those who are questioning you to "do their homework," then it's just as well this is all we get from you on this forum as there's been enough empty hand-waving going on here already.
se
Let me give an example which recently came up here and how it has been addressed in AudioLand -->
Phonograph interconnect (cart to RIAA preamp):
When millions of people from all over the world say they hear differences between phono cables (the metadata) we tell them -- its all in your head. and as proof: The cables are measured for THD/IM and freq response. Conclusion? The cables measure perfect. Its all in your head.
Instead we should look at the developed 'metadata' and measure as a system and there you will see the frequency response changes with cable C etc and cart damping of resonances. Shifted resonances etc.
It is not all in thier head or some witchcraft or bias.
WE have a lot of metadata to investigate if you-all will get your heads out of the sand/b...t.
Thx-RNMarsh
[call me impatient... only been hearing this crap for just one life time!]
Phonograph interconnect (cart to RIAA preamp):
When millions of people from all over the world say they hear differences between phono cables (the metadata) we tell them -- its all in your head. and as proof: The cables are measured for THD/IM and freq response. Conclusion? The cables measure perfect. Its all in your head.
Instead we should look at the developed 'metadata' and measure as a system and there you will see the frequency response changes with cable C etc and cart damping of resonances. Shifted resonances etc.
It is not all in thier head or some witchcraft or bias.
WE have a lot of metadata to investigate if you-all will get your heads out of the sand/b...t.
Thx-RNMarsh
[call me impatient... only been hearing this crap for just one life time!]
Do your own homework. I've just pointed you in the direction.
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But since all of those people are human beings who are prone to bias, all the metadata in the world isn't going to tell you whether or not what they claim to hear is due to actual audible differences or if it's simply due to bias. Nor will any subsequent measurements unless your measurements show frequency response changes that are within currently known thresholds of audibility. And if they're not, then your measurements will be little more than a lot of tail-chasing.
So far you have not been able to, indeed flat out refused, to explain how this method you propose gets around this.
It's not heads in the sand that's the problem, it's heads in the clouds.
And we've been getting this empty hand-waving crap for just one lifetime as well.
se
I've looked. There's no doubt about it. You're wrong. Simple as that. If you don't believe me, go do your own homework.
se
Dick
If all of anything measure the same all that says to me is you don't have enough resolution.
As to the question of does the ferrite core on the cord have a measurable difference. The answer is yes.
The question becomes is that difference one that can be heard?
Now if there was significant power line noise that the ferrite core did remove a moderate quality music system could indeed change enough to be noticed.
Now if this change is noted as better or worse is an issue. An increase of noise may help to mask some distortion components.
So while the annecdotal tale may be plausible and agrees with others observations it is not proof that ferrites are bad.
While a double blind test may or may not show an audible difference in the case of a difference it does not tell all.
If all of anything measure the same all that says to me is you don't have enough resolution.
As to the question of does the ferrite core on the cord have a measurable difference. The answer is yes.
The question becomes is that difference one that can be heard?
Now if there was significant power line noise that the ferrite core did remove a moderate quality music system could indeed change enough to be noticed.
Now if this change is noted as better or worse is an issue. An increase of noise may help to mask some distortion components.
So while the annecdotal tale may be plausible and agrees with others observations it is not proof that ferrites are bad.
While a double blind test may or may not show an audible difference in the case of a difference it does not tell all.
Ferrites. Moving right along. Sometimes we dont measure the right thing and thus draw a wrong or partial wrong conclusion.... one of many possible. Like the cable example. Wrong test and wrong conclusion.
With ac power line communications and its EMI/RFI getting into everything with unintended consequences for some A/V systems..... -->
I know the freq used for this PLC product and therefore am able to select the ferrite for the highest Ls/Z at that frequency. Everything has such a ferrite on its cord to isolate the equipment from the communication device. How can the effectiveness be measured (audio/video/digital)? -->
I stream real-time HD movies via Netflex from the Internet over ac power to the Video display (TV). I can use a web site to measure the speed coming and going. And there is software from the PLC people to use. So I did a before and after test - with and without the ferrite and the speed was more than doubled when I used the ferrites on all ac line connected equipment. I suppose the reason is that the signal isnt being split many directions... higher signal strength at the TV and higher speed. And, i have kept it out of the other gear.
Thx-RNMarsh
With ac power line communications and its EMI/RFI getting into everything with unintended consequences for some A/V systems..... -->
I know the freq used for this PLC product and therefore am able to select the ferrite for the highest Ls/Z at that frequency. Everything has such a ferrite on its cord to isolate the equipment from the communication device. How can the effectiveness be measured (audio/video/digital)? -->
I stream real-time HD movies via Netflex from the Internet over ac power to the Video display (TV). I can use a web site to measure the speed coming and going. And there is software from the PLC people to use. So I did a before and after test - with and without the ferrite and the speed was more than doubled when I used the ferrites on all ac line connected equipment. I suppose the reason is that the signal isnt being split many directions... higher signal strength at the TV and higher speed. And, i have kept it out of the other gear.
Thx-RNMarsh
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Richard
Evaluating the effects of cables by various measurements at the output of the system they are attached to -and not measuring cables in isolation- is the proper thing to do and the reasoning for this has been already addressed in this site.
There is no need (and no point IMO) to run through metadata scrutinizing for this.
Have I misunderstood your words in this post?
Drug trial experiments. That's an extremely different sort of question being asked, so the appropriate experiments look considerably different, other than the strict necessity to run them double blind for them to have even the slightest validity.
Yes you have.
try to string it all together and see if you get a different view... cant be taken one input in isolation to the other inputs I just put forth.
Thx-Richard
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Yes however drug company spend much more each year on advertising than R&D ! Snake oil is the ticket not hard R&D . Much harder to disprove and then you have clinical trials that say it is effective but don't know why . This with the uses of double blind testing well well.
Richard
Indeed I was referring specifically (“in isolation”) to the example you posted here:
I did this not for to invalidate your opinion for the need of looking at metadata but just to say that in specific cases like your example, there are other issues of pure engineering nature that have to be sorted out first in engineering terms before running into further troubles by adding a whole bunch of other uncertainties (metadata analysis)
George
Back to business..... here is a method I used successfully (I think) for keeping the PLC signal out of everything else in the A/V system - similar methods with L/C elements can also be used for a broader range if needed to isolate EMI/RFI -->
Thx-RNMarsh
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In order to look at metadata, you first have to have data. That's the whole point of meta-analysis. If one is narrow-minded enough to insist on data of higher quality than that indicating alien abductions and anal probing, then the meta-analysis of listening data on electronics shows exactly what you'd expect- humans are very sensitive to interchannel timing, frequency response, and level. They are indifferently sensitive to distortion, slightly sensitive to phase (at certain frequencies and levels of phase change), and absolutely insensitive to "magic" factors.
I see. I was also referring to the way it was handled years ago when the cable issue first came up. Had we not jumped to quick conclusions we might have seen earlier what we more completely understand now.
Thanks for your thoughts.
-Richard
Exactly. Where's the meta-data? If it doesnt exist, we only have the DBLT to rely on? Not good... but better than nothing. It helps somewhat. But we know from experience in many many other scientific fields that DBT alone isnt Always conclusive.
So what is the closet thing we have to audio related meta-data??
Thx-RNMarsh
Probably they have realized that advertisement (or snake oil if you like) is one factor that can affect people’s opinion –directly or indirectly (through the doctor prescribing it)-on a medicine, thus trigger the beneficial for them placebo effect.
I would say that jcx linked article has triggered in me a delayed interest on the validity of mind sets like this:
Funkadelic - Free Your Mind - YouTube
(“The King of the Heaven is within”)
George
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