The total will always involve random vector addition and approach a root sum of squares not linear addition so to get from -100dB to -80dB you would need 100 components in series. No speaker even approaches these numbers anyway. We also know how to make amplifiers that are second and third harmonic dominated by a wide margin. I don't see THD factoring into the sound of anything unless it is the "sound".
BTW where in Vol. 4? I don't remember anything but anecdotal references.
I never worried about phase in harmonic distortion's products, but can't we think they are correlated with the phase of the fundamental frequency of the original signal everywhere they are produced, at least for the first orders ? I mean, like clipping...
Amusing to see how our posts are in phase about this subject
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You remember correctly. I scoured the article about listening/measurement correlation for actual listening data and was sorely disappointed.
I guess I should put a word in here. I can't argue anything on these topics, because the opinions here are based in limited information coupled with a lot of strong opinion.
Personally, I trust my ears to tell me what is important or not.
Secondly, I have studied, and continue to refer back to even early comments on THD, IM, and TIM to get a better understanding as to what 'should' be audible.
I generally ignore loudspeaker harmonic distortion, as it does not appear to 'blend' with the amp differences.
The Hirata test shows a significant difference between distortion generated in loudspeakers vs electronics, and just the opposite results are found than people here would nominally predict.
Personally, I trust my ears to tell me what is important or not.
Secondly, I have studied, and continue to refer back to even early comments on THD, IM, and TIM to get a better understanding as to what 'should' be audible.
I generally ignore loudspeaker harmonic distortion, as it does not appear to 'blend' with the amp differences.
The Hirata test shows a significant difference between distortion generated in loudspeakers vs electronics, and just the opposite results are found than people here would nominally predict.
While your informations are not limited and your opinions so open minded ?
I'm so sorry, but i don't trust your ears because, happily, i'm not in your brain. I even not so much trust mine and i don't believe they are the center of the world.
Never in my life, never, i had met any talented person satisfied with himself or arrogant. And more they are famous, more they are modest and kind. Because self satisfaction and arrogance is just a wall between us and any learning or discovering.
In no way you can justify that H2 or H3 produced by a loudspeaker is different from H2 or H3 produced by anything else, apart their levels or phase.
I'm sure you can justify what you assert, but please, provide maths. Not brutal and vague assertions provided by... Who ?
And because i believe we (Scott or I) do not differ in what we said from what you can think (HD is not the main issue) i don't understand your smoggy intervention.
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For those who wish to further understand my position, I asked the SAME QUESTION, 40 years ago to Richard Heyser (if you don't know who he is, Google his name).
I was not alone, 3 engineers in total, including me, went to see him, in order to get an answer as to why loudspeakers can have significant distortion, yet we can hear differences in amps and preamps, with much lower distortion.
EVERY TIME, I give Richard Heyser's answer here, I get hoots, etc. However, I took his input seriously, and that is one of the reasons I have had a very successful career in audio design. My associate, Bascom King, who was with me at that meeting, 40 years ago, now designs, as I do, for Constellation, making power amps. You might check out his efforts.
I was not alone, 3 engineers in total, including me, went to see him, in order to get an answer as to why loudspeakers can have significant distortion, yet we can hear differences in amps and preamps, with much lower distortion.
EVERY TIME, I give Richard Heyser's answer here, I get hoots, etc. However, I took his input seriously, and that is one of the reasons I have had a very successful career in audio design. My associate, Bascom King, who was with me at that meeting, 40 years ago, now designs, as I do, for Constellation, making power amps. You might check out his efforts.
In my relatively old age, I am continually surprised what I can still hear, especially as differences in audio equipment.
Last week at this time, I was reporting my listening opinions to OPPO, as to their new 105 audio outputs. Of course, the engineers have a hard time believing me, because THEY trust their test equipment. I use both test equipment and ears, but I have MORE experience in highest quality audio design, and that makes the biggest difference.
On the same day, I listened to the latest version of a new amplifier design that we have worked on over several years. It sounded OK, but other limitations in the $100,000+ audio playback system spoiled the demo. Now I have to help my colleague get a Vendetta playback to make his vinyl sound as good as his digital, which was superb.
I still don't like digital much. It's good enough for movies and TV, but when I am listening to music, I need more. I think I was born this way.
Last week at this time, I was reporting my listening opinions to OPPO, as to their new 105 audio outputs. Of course, the engineers have a hard time believing me, because THEY trust their test equipment. I use both test equipment and ears, but I have MORE experience in highest quality audio design, and that makes the biggest difference.
On the same day, I listened to the latest version of a new amplifier design that we have worked on over several years. It sounded OK, but other limitations in the $100,000+ audio playback system spoiled the demo. Now I have to help my colleague get a Vendetta playback to make his vinyl sound as good as his digital, which was superb.
I still don't like digital much. It's good enough for movies and TV, but when I am listening to music, I need more. I think I was born this way.
Hi John
Ok, you caught my ear here, Dick was an inspiration for me and I am an early TEF user. My friend and co-worker Doug Jones was the curator of the Heyser library when he taught at Columbia College and I was lucky to be able to poke through it and read some of his unpublished papers. I met him one time, Don and Carolyn Davis asked me if I wanted to walk with them (at an AES show) and that turned into a dinner with them and a number of others in audio including Dick. I said about three words all night and that only when Don threw me a slow pitch about the Servodrive subs.
While he is terribly under appreciated by the AES, for me he changed my life in sound or at least his TEF machine .
Anyway, if you can bare to go through it again, I promise I won’t hoot and holler.
Fwiw, I have seen (with an HP-3562) loudspeakers where the distortion was both reduced and increased (depending on the harmonic) due to vector addition with the drive amplifiers harmonics.
Best,
Tom
Ok, you caught my ear here, Dick was an inspiration for me and I am an early TEF user. My friend and co-worker Doug Jones was the curator of the Heyser library when he taught at Columbia College and I was lucky to be able to poke through it and read some of his unpublished papers. I met him one time, Don and Carolyn Davis asked me if I wanted to walk with them (at an AES show) and that turned into a dinner with them and a number of others in audio including Dick. I said about three words all night and that only when Don threw me a slow pitch about the Servodrive subs.
While he is terribly under appreciated by the AES, for me he changed my life in sound or at least his TEF machine .
Anyway, if you can bare to go through it again, I promise I won’t hoot and holler.
Fwiw, I have seen (with an HP-3562) loudspeakers where the distortion was both reduced and increased (depending on the harmonic) due to vector addition with the drive amplifiers harmonics.
Best,
Tom
Again, with all my sympathy, you cannot decide of that, everybody think he is open minded.
Only others can judge of that.
'Open minded' does not mean, i believe, some try his best, but he is able to consider other's thoughts and try to understand how and why they can differ from his own ( or correlate ) and try to find some food in it.
Of course, this assumes a minimum of sympathy, consideration, respect and courtesy to others.
And, when some feel the need to demonstrate something, his words are like wind. Nobody cares about faiths of others.
Demonstration is the minimal exercise and let people decide by themselves, a minimal respect to their intelligence.
How can-we get some respect from others if we do not give any to others ?
May-i give an example ? Why the Bob Cordell's demonstration of the importance of amp's 'speed' in regard of TIM had so much influence in the audio world ?
Not because he discovered something revolutionary, many people were fighting to increase open loop bandwidth in servo systems since long years, it is just because he demonstrated its correlation with TIM in a very scientific, clear and modest approach with no ego.
And that will not give-him more credit for future assertions, since i'm sure he will not assert but, again, demonstrate.
Names are not references, only numbers and logic. And AES just a little private club.
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Esperado, I will not debate with you about 'open-mindedness'. For me, the definition of 'open-minded' is to NOT judge without real evidence, something that might be potentially controversial.
Are you sure about Bob Cordell's argument? Open loop bandwidth is an OTALA-CURL fantasy, not a Bob Cordell one. He just makes a fast amp, 200V/us as I recall. I know Bob better than you do, so to compare Bob to me is laughable, with the opinions that you have stated.
Are you sure about Bob Cordell's argument? Open loop bandwidth is an OTALA-CURL fantasy, not a Bob Cordell one. He just makes a fast amp, 200V/us as I recall. I know Bob better than you do, so to compare Bob to me is laughable, with the opinions that you have stated.
How about un-masking.
Still waiting, we haven't diverged into a sub-thread planning the great listening test in a while.
No, I think the idea is that a speaker with percents of 2nd's and 3rd's does not mask the op-amp in front of it with -100dB of each.
BTW - please John repeat Dick's comment in detail you have done nothing but allude to it as far back as I can recall.
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Well, I think speaker distortion masks any distortion of well designed amplifier. Anywhere, even for "high order" components. Recently I made a large set of FFT measurements at acoustical side, i.e. with microphone at listening place. Change of two amplifiers that measure different electrically, but below 0.01%, made absolutely no difference in FFT spectrum of harmonic distortion and ccif imd. To me, nonlinear distortion is not an answer of different sound of well designed amplifiers.
Take the entire record/reproduce system into account -
Hmmm. seemed to have missed my point somewhere.... we want to have -100 in all the electronic amplifying/buffering stages (up to a hundred of them from recording source to speaker amp) just so it isnt audible and never will be.
I take the view of designing to the the worse case where they Do all add up. Never-the -less, in the here and now- with millions of existing record/reproduce systems and with millions of combinations of all possible -old and new - hardware, there is a substantial number that have audible levels of distortion. [Since we are mostly talking about electronic designs here.. I am leaving out speakers.] That's all.... dont read more into it than is here/there.
-RNM
Hmmm. seemed to have missed my point somewhere.... we want to have -100 in all the electronic amplifying/buffering stages (up to a hundred of them from recording source to speaker amp) just so it isnt audible and never will be.
I take the view of designing to the the worse case where they Do all add up. Never-the -less, in the here and now- with millions of existing record/reproduce systems and with millions of combinations of all possible -old and new - hardware, there is a substantial number that have audible levels of distortion. [Since we are mostly talking about electronic designs here.. I am leaving out speakers.] That's all.... dont read more into it than is here/there.
-RNM
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