No problem at all.
1) Power line noise matters.
2} Power conditioners/filters are good.
3) That's old knowledge.
4) Audiophiles make claims based on shunt devices.
5) Shunt line filters must be better for audiophiles.
6) The beat goes on.
Some of them are, definitely not all of them. Some degrade the sound quality. Better no filter than a bad one.
#1,2,3 true. And, I too knew of power conditioning long, long before. Just noting that it was not always old info for use with audio/video home systems.
I hope people dont just assume or lump me in with or rather dont blame me for others apps and thier marketing spins/stories and goofy explainations, stupid high prices etc.
There are plenty of opportunist waiting in the wings to abuse the gullable or easily pursuaded for just about anything that can be sold.
Enjoy the music !
-RNMarsh
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3) and 6) are equivalent, so cancel them.
1) and 4) are equivalent, so cancel them
That leaves 2) and 5)
So, who's making the claim?
That was a rhetorical comment, treating line noise in general can be a good thing. Nothing has been presented that precludes a good conventional power line conditioner being totally adequate for the job. Certainly that last patent cited makes a very poor arguement for shunt noise filtering.
Frank - 5) Shunt line filters must be better for audiophiles. That's a claim I certainly did not make and which I would like to see substantiated.
Don't worry this is the last day of my week off, I won't have time for this next week.
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That would be the Richard Gray Power Company.
Stereophile reviewed it some time back and had a sidebar which showed that it wasn't storing any energy to speak of under AC conditions (it's a big *** inductor so natch).
At one of the shows, Gray was demonstrating it's ability to store massive amounts of energy by energizing it with a ***DC*** current, then flipping a switch which shorted a lightbulb across it, the flyback voltage causing the lightbulb to flash.
se
Sounds like he missed part of EE101, par for the course. The reality of engineering is so cut and dry, boring in a way, and audio is supposed to be fun.
When I was visiting my friend that wrote for TAS I was complaining about one of the reviews and he picked up the phone and called Tom Miiller thinking I would be impressed. I proceeded to tell him that the concept of a mechanical diode in the context of the SOTA turntable made no physiical sense, waste of time since a basic intuitive feel for physics is a burden to these folks.
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Hi John,
I also found some commercial mains filters to degrade the sound. I'm not sure whether it's because they didn't filter noise properly, or because of their internal resistance was too high for the power consumption, or whatever.
Since even with plain power splitters, the type and make of the AC sockets matters a lot, it may well apply to filters having AC sockets.
Everything DO matter.
My comment was practical, rather than rhetorical.
Indeed, there is no doubt that treating line noise in general can be a good thing. My comment referred to practical implementations, including some commercial ones.
When you say: "Power conditioners/filters are good", I felt that adding the remark "that the actual implantation is important" is in place. I related only to the way you phrased it, not to your assumed intention.
That remark of mine stems from encountering few 'audiophiles' who blindly hook to their system line filters of all sorts, regardless of the actual impact on sound quality. This is why I'm very careful in having broad statements relating to whatever improves (or degrades) sound quality. Too broad statements may be misleading to some readers.
Having said that, a proper power treatment to a sound setup has great benefit to sound quality.
Of course, power treatment doesn't eliminate the vital need for proper loudspeakers and listening position placement, acoustic treatment and vibrations absorption.
All the above have cardinal impact on the sound quality, at times more than the actual gear used.
This is why everything DO matter when it concerns the sound quality.
OK, yes I always assume someone offering a product/device has made a good faith effort to offer something of value that can be expressed as an honest assesment of its performance. Do you think anything less or does dealing in the audiophile realm dull your expectations?
Hi Scot,
You are correct.
Alas, practically the picture is quite different…
Let me give an example.
There is a well-known Japanese company producing all sorts of plugs and connectors, including power plugs, power sockets, power splitters and mains filters.
I do believe that they honestly believe that they are producing very good products. However, I found out that some of their power products (power plugs and sockets) degraded the sound quality of my setup.
The power plugs and sockets that I found very beneficial are made by another well-known Japanese company. Alas, their products are far more expansive than those of the former company.
Therefore, a serious company having good faith in their products doesn't ensure high quality (for audio setups), not necessarily, not always.
The picture gets much more complicated because of different audio enthusiasts have a variety of tastes and preferences.
Some like a very bright sound, others like a massive bass response, that 'hits the guts', and so on.
Thus, a certain product will be evaluated as excellent by some audio enthusiasts, while the same product will be evaluated as horrible by others.
Therefore, to my view, in most cases it is impossible to give a general evaluation to any audio product as either 'good' or 'bad' – unless the product is technically flawed.
So, is there is piece of kit available to inject all sorts of crud in a controlled manner into the mains supply, just to see if such has a noticeable effect, ever measured or heard?
Like a power regenerator, obviously of ample capacity if it's to cope with high power amplifiers, with signal and noise generator tacked on ...
Frank
Like a power regenerator, obviously of ample capacity if it's to cope with high power amplifiers, with signal and noise generator tacked on ...
Frank
Fine, all I expect is good faith, people/companies have different abilities and perceptions and I do respect your desire to make your own choices. BTW I'm sorry that you had a fire and are at a disadvantage in making yourself whole again.
There is plenty of this stuff: Solar Electronics They have a 100W amp and transformer for coupling junk into the power line. Its actually part of some test requirements. However testing to see how the sound is affected is a bigger chore. And the amp has a noisy fan. If anyone is interested I have both and will lend locally.
Shocking !
Then again, if I were in the oiling business, I'd have your picture gold-framed on my wall.
I can hear it when my shoelaces are too tight.
(thanks for posting the schematic, Mr Wurcer)
FYI -- Some of the biggest and most common noise generators are often found in cheap lamp dimmers in the home (without zero crossing switching and rfi filters). And, many switching power supplies built as 'wall wort' supplies are another very common source. In fact, many more products are using switching PS.. some which draw considerable current - like TV's. So, be sure when you inject noise into ac line that there are not already a great number of noise frequencies there already to mask your test. -RNM
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