Amen to that.
That's exactly (and unfortunately) where the high end audio bear sits today...
It's refreshing to see that some insiders are able and willing to admit it.
And sad that others don't.
There is just an underlying tone that takes away from any serious discussions IMO. If people want to disagree with JC design choices, that I fully understand and commend the in depth discussions that have taken place. What I think is intolerable are the subtle and often not so subtle jabs that make many of these posts incredibly juvenile at best. People retaliate when they feel that they have been attacked, directly or indirectly.
Subjective vs. objective arguments will persist and both sides will never back down. It is the disrespect for each parties beliefs that I find to be distracting. Why is that these discussions can not remain civil and respectful of each others opinions? Is this about "I am right and you are wrong"?
Would people act this way if they were in the same rooms with each other? I doubt it or else the provoking person had better be ready to physically defend themselves, as I can not believe for one minute that anyone would consider many of these "arguments" as non-personal, in their presentations.
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Curly,
Short answer: what you mention often happens, and we ALL are guilty, you and me included. If your post is meant as a call to respect and civility, I can fully agree. If it is meant to point an accusing finger to those that happen not to agree to your pov, I cannot.
If one wants respect and civility, one should start with one's own posts. (And no, I am NOT singling out you for this; that why I say 'one's and not 'your'
) jd
Curly,
Short answer: what you mention often happens, and we ALL are guilty, you and me included. If your post is meant as a call to respect and civility, I can fully agree. If it is meant to point an accusing finger to those that happen not to agree to your pov, I cannot.
If one wants respect and civility, one should start with one's own posts. (And no, I am NOT singling out you for this; that why I say 'one's and not 'your'
jd
No it is not a personal attack, it is a call for civility for everyone, including myself. I would like to be able to discuss things and not feel attacked or to feel that I need to retaliate either. I am guilty of being flippant from time to time, so I have been trying my best to have a change in attitude. People are entitled to their POV, but to make snide remarks and innuendo makes for a complete breakdown of any discussion.
Fully agree; we are all guilty now and then, you, me, as well as JC. You can see it happen: somebody feels personally attacked, and responds in kind, and that unleashes a whole slew of counter-attacks. Not feeling personally attacked is very, very hard when your believes are directly questioned. So, lets try harder!
Thanks for your posts,
jd
It appears to me that it's erroneous to think that most people here agree on which audio amplifiers sound better than others. In this forum, much like any other forum around the globe that deals with audio, there are basically two "camps". There is the "Objective Camp" and there is the "Subjective Camp". People of the "Objective Camp" will evaluate the sound quality of an amplifier only by the way it measures, while people of the "Subjective Camp" will evaluate the sound quality of an amplifier mostly by the way it sound to their ears. People of the "Objective Camp" do not hear differences between various cables (or wouldn't even consider trying to listen and discern if there are such differences), while people of the "Subjective Camp" hear differences between cables (and all other parts used in audio amplifiers, including wires, connectors, resistors and capacitors). Thus, some amplifiers that are considered by people of the "Objective Camp" to have very good sound, are considered by people of the "Subjective Camp" to have a mediocre, or poor sound.
No doubt there are many rip-offs in the "High End" audio market. However, I didn't hear so far a great sounding amplifier built with the cheapest parts. I encountered good sounding amplifiers built with the cheapest parts, that once the parts were replaced with high quality (and expansive) ones, sound great. A well designed amplifier may well sound good with standard parts, but will never sound great. This is at least my experience.
I am retired, with very small amount of savings. The sound quality of my audio reproduction set is one of the most important things in my life. I'm bleeding when I want to improve the sound quality of any part of my audio set, because of the high costs. I'd bless any one who will point out to me a great sounding piece of gear that sounds great, yet is cheap to buy, or to build DIY.
I would hope we could get away from the two camps syndrome. It is NOT true that 'objectivists' only judge amps by their measurements. It is NOT true that objectivists refuse to acknowledge audible differences between amps. Objectivists are, generally, very aware that measurements don't tell the whole story. What objectivists generally ask for is objective listening tests rather than subjective anecdotal reports or test. I hope the point of this is clear.
Objectivists DO hear differences between cables and amps. I do. And sometimes (often) those audible differences can be measured. Sometimes they cannot; and then we would like to do some objective listening tests to confirm that what we heard is really there, because many of us are also aware that hearing and perception are two different things.
Joshua, really your description of objectivists and subjectivists is generally incorrect, although there are probably people that fit it. But by no means all; and I for one don't like to be grouped under any of those descriptions.
jd
Things move rather quickly here. Getting back to the BT case, I just priced the Al on line. It is less than $550. With machining and finishing the final price should not be over $1000. Before you ask, yes I am a trained machinist also. John, maybe you should have cases made in TN instead of locally.
As for what Chris was saying about price verses quality, I must agree. Through the years I have had access to most of the Hi End products released between the mid 60s up until about 2006. That was part of my research into what was out there. I must say, the build quality was from nearly perfect to things that no DIYer would have accepted from a project. We won't even get into the thought that must have gone into making units serviceable. I know Chris could name a very long list of those.
As for what Chris was saying about price verses quality, I must agree. Through the years I have had access to most of the Hi End products released between the mid 60s up until about 2006. That was part of my research into what was out there. I must say, the build quality was from nearly perfect to things that no DIYer would have accepted from a project. We won't even get into the thought that must have gone into making units serviceable. I know Chris could name a very long list of those.
This is probably true for the minority of objectivists, definitely not for the majority of them.
I pay about $350 for mine, CNC milled case from 8mm Al plates, without finishing.
NOt cheapest componenets - but same BT case can be manufactured with lower cost. I understood his statement as this.
kannan
This is not what Chris and I were talking about, which Steve responded to.
I don't think anybody (and certainly not me) said that the Blowtorch is a bad amp. What I mantain is that, at time, the price/performance ratio was obscene. And no, I'm not claiming that JC got any major tangible benefit from that price (au contraire, he appears to me rather a victim of this ****** up business). Others collected, in particular those promoting and selling high end audio as black magic, rather than just another piece of engineering.
You can build today the same or better quality probably for under 10% of that price (marketing not included).
It all depends what "quality" means for everyone. Highly subjective. For some it means low THD, etc., numbers. For others it means components in a certain class, and yet for others it means sound. I maintain that there is absolutely no objectivity whatsoever in this field (and many others). Everyone defines their own objectivity. This all sounds to me like arguing about faith or religion. It's a personal experience. Some people share certain personal experiences, and that extends suddenly beyond the individual. Still, there is no general consensus.
Can we get back to technical mumbo-jumbo please?
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I think that we should all drive 1960's Austin London taxi cabs. They got you there, went fast enough, and had lots of room. That is the equivalent of what Syn08 is talking about in audio design IN MY PERSONAL OPINION. How can I argue with it? Aren't RR's a waste of money and effort? Bentleys? It is just that SOME PEOPLE like to make fine things and others like to buy them, because they have an excess of money. I don't have an excess of money, so I am stuck with cheaper or used quality cars.
The BLOWTORCH was an effort on our part to make the best preamp that we could make. We needed a solid chassis, the extra shielding was very useful at times, and it made the unit stand out among the competition. We each, the 3 designers, got one for ourselves, for our design efforts. Is this so bad? Matches most of the DIY efforts here, I can tell you.
The BLOWTORCH was an effort on our part to make the best preamp that we could make. We needed a solid chassis, the extra shielding was very useful at times, and it made the unit stand out among the competition. We each, the 3 designers, got one for ourselves, for our design efforts. Is this so bad? Matches most of the DIY efforts here, I can tell you.
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Why? You don't seem to care much about "quality", as reflected through numbers.
Wouldn't be better to build your discrete power supply, tweak it to your taste, and then tell everybody how great it sounds, perhaps comparing with a subjectively highly regarded commercial product?
I don't think anyone said that. What is being said is that sound quality and measured performance are not automatically hand in hand. No one is stating that measured performance is not important. It just does not tell the entire story, that is all.
How do you know the sound quality of CTC Blowtorch? Or do you mean another type of quality?
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