Re: Re: Re: Measurements
My comments were based on the plots on Seas website. I think it's reasonable to expect that they be credible and correct. However, now having read the article, it's clear that they haven't put in a correct plot showing the actual response. As has been commented, it is probably only showing the output of the driver without the TL line "boost."
I made no statement at all that about their ability to judge or discern bass output. If a speaker is claimed to have an F3 @ 45 Hz then the plot should show it! It should be based on correct measurements, not on opinions. Now I have read the article and it's clear from that article that Seas haven't shown the correct plot on their site. It's unfortunate that they have no email address or means of feedback on their site as the misleading plot will probably turn away a number of otherwise interested DIYers.
Have I said anything unreasonable or illogical or that makes any such accusing statements, claiming that certain people have poor judgement? I believe my previous posts were reasonable based on the information on the Seas website, even though I should have known better than to have believed that plot to be the correct one.
Bratislav said:
My comments were based on the plots on Seas website. I think it's reasonable to expect that they be credible and correct. However, now having read the article, it's clear that they haven't put in a correct plot showing the actual response. As has been commented, it is probably only showing the output of the driver without the TL line "boost."
Bratislav said:
I made no statement at all that about their ability to judge or discern bass output. If a speaker is claimed to have an F3 @ 45 Hz then the plot should show it! It should be based on correct measurements, not on opinions. Now I have read the article and it's clear from that article that Seas haven't shown the correct plot on their site. It's unfortunate that they have no email address or means of feedback on their site as the misleading plot will probably turn away a number of otherwise interested DIYers.
Have I said anything unreasonable or illogical or that makes any such accusing statements, claiming that certain people have poor judgement? I believe my previous posts were reasonable based on the information on the Seas website, even though I should have known better than to have believed that plot to be the correct one.
Re: Re: Re: Measurements
4real,
When things are "wrong in theory" but generally considered to sounds "right," then it suggests that we don't understand the theory very well. It's not that there is anything wrong with our hearing, this comment suggests we need to better understand how objective measurements relate to what we actually perceive. Psychoacoustics can be quite helpful in this regard.
Planet10,
After reading the article his comment that you can in fact alter the design without compromising the performance too much seems valid to me. I suspect that comments of the nature of "bass shy" might relate to two things:
1. the character of the bass being more refined and less punchy than vented bass which many are more accustomed to
2. perhaps the low distortion Seas drivers also sound more refined but with less impact than a driver with more distortion as the perception of loudness is linked to distortion
I don't think it's a matter of who to believe. In such a situation one should try to reconcile the measurements with subjective impressions. Both should be questioned to find out what to believe, not who.
Bill, in a previous post (on polyfill) you said:
"I personally don't make subjective comments; I only speak from personal experience and mine in measured testing"
Now you ask us to believe you based on your subjective listening impressions when a plot is available! ... Now of course we see that the plot was the wrong plot, and that the correct plots confirm what you heard.
From the article, clearly the plot on the site is wrong. If I had their email, I'd contact them.
Thanks for the link, this clears things up a lot.
4real said:Apperantly, some things that are wrong in theory, bot are not wrong in real life (or, with the Irak war, the opposite). So... It sounds great... but why? Is the theory wrong, the measurments, have the people bad ears...
Don't get me wrong.. I thinkt this speaker will sound great, but that is even more reason to find out what the secret is
4real,
When things are "wrong in theory" but generally considered to sounds "right," then it suggests that we don't understand the theory very well. It's not that there is anything wrong with our hearing, this comment suggests we need to better understand how objective measurements relate to what we actually perceive. Psychoacoustics can be quite helpful in this regard.
planet10 said:
Planet10,
After reading the article his comment that you can in fact alter the design without compromising the performance too much seems valid to me. I suspect that comments of the nature of "bass shy" might relate to two things:
1. the character of the bass being more refined and less punchy than vented bass which many are more accustomed to
2. perhaps the low distortion Seas drivers also sound more refined but with less impact than a driver with more distortion as the perception of loudness is linked to distortion
BillFitzmaurice said:
I don't think it's a matter of who to believe. In such a situation one should try to reconcile the measurements with subjective impressions. Both should be questioned to find out what to believe, not who.
Bill, in a previous post (on polyfill) you said:
"I personally don't make subjective comments; I only speak from personal experience and mine in measured testing"
Now you ask us to believe you based on your subjective listening impressions when a plot is available! ... Now of course we see that the plot was the wrong plot, and that the correct plots confirm what you heard.
BillFitzmaurice said:
From the article, clearly the plot on the site is wrong. If I had their email, I'd contact them.
rnoble said:
Thanks for the link, this clears things up a lot.
Paul,
While the Thors were under development (unbeknownst to me) I was working on my own TLs starting from the original Odin design. (which I didn't like the sound of)
The results can be seen at:
http://propstuff.com.au/speakers.htm
NOTE If you follow the link to the construction details; there is a Typo on one of the crossover values -but I can't remember which one {:-O
In my design there is NO bass problem. The in-room bass is good down to below 30Hz, it is tight, deep, smooth, clean, and has plenty of punch!
Forget the plots, the Thors should sound great.
PS where in melbourne are you?
cheers,
N.
While the Thors were under development (unbeknownst to me) I was working on my own TLs starting from the original Odin design. (which I didn't like the sound of)
The results can be seen at:
http://propstuff.com.au/speakers.htm
NOTE If you follow the link to the construction details; there is a Typo on one of the crossover values -but I can't remember which one {:-O
In my design there is NO bass problem. The in-room bass is good down to below 30Hz, it is tight, deep, smooth, clean, and has plenty of punch!
Forget the plots, the Thors should sound great.
PS where in melbourne are you?
cheers,
N.
Paul and Propstuff: I intend to build these speakers over the next 6 months, I'm also in Melbourne, so we can have a listen and make some comparisons once I'm done, maybe someone could supply some good quality amplification otherwise it'll take me longer to build the amp that's on my list as well
I'd certainly be interested to hear how mine compare with the Thors. (Thors also use the updated W18 drivers from the time I built mine with the W17s)rnoble said:I'm also in Melbourne, so we can have a listen and make some comparisons once I'm done, maybe someone could supply some good quality amplification otherwise it'll take me longer to build the amp that's on my list as well
If you want quality DIY amplification, I can bring my AKSA 100N.
( Go to www.aksaonline.com ) -verrry nice, for a nice price.
cheers,
N.
Re: Re: Re: Re: Measurements
That is exactly what I have told you in my first post. You still believed the plot and ignored the post (can't blame you for that really, Seas should know better), as well as posts of many people who said that there's nothing wrong with Thor's bass, and Brian's own measurements showing F3 of 45Hz; also didn't do a simple check with any of the CAD programs to see that pair of W18 in a said enclosure should do much better than 100Hz.
Not directly, no. But by openly saying "Thor is very bass shy, it rolls off at 100Hz", yes you did. 100Hz is *incredibly* bass shy ! Even tiniest of speakers (Tablettes, Totem 1s) will go well below 100Hz.
I guess it SHOULD. But you can't have it both ways - either speakers roll off at 100Hz and people's opinions and experiences as well as D'Appolito's word are wrong, OR people's opinions are right, and speaker rolls off much lower.
Cheers,
Bratislav
PS I'm also in Melbourne and I'd be eager to pitch VAF i66 against Thor variants if any of you guys are interested; I also have DIY KSA 100, I'm curious to see how well can it do against AKSA
paulspencer said:
That is exactly what I have told you in my first post. You still believed the plot and ignored the post (can't blame you for that really, Seas should know better), as well as posts of many people who said that there's nothing wrong with Thor's bass, and Brian's own measurements showing F3 of 45Hz; also didn't do a simple check with any of the CAD programs to see that pair of W18 in a said enclosure should do much better than 100Hz.
Not directly, no. But by openly saying "Thor is very bass shy, it rolls off at 100Hz", yes you did. 100Hz is *incredibly* bass shy ! Even tiniest of speakers (Tablettes, Totem 1s) will go well below 100Hz.
I guess it SHOULD. But you can't have it both ways - either speakers roll off at 100Hz and people's opinions and experiences as well as D'Appolito's word are wrong, OR people's opinions are right, and speaker rolls off much lower.
Cheers,
Bratislav
PS I'm also in Melbourne and I'd be eager to pitch VAF i66 against Thor variants if any of you guys are interested; I also have DIY KSA 100, I'm curious to see how well can it do against AKSA
Paul, the anechoic response is f3@45 Hz. The in room response is into the 30 Hz range. Remember room loading efffects the response, that's why subs play deeper when you place them in the corner of the room.
D'Appolito is one of the foremost desginers in the world and there was no attempt to mislead.
You should try getting the AudioXpress article that describes in detail the construction and measurements.
D'Appolito is one of the foremost desginers in the world and there was no attempt to mislead.
You should try getting the AudioXpress article that describes in detail the construction and measurements.
Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Measurements
I'm in Melbourne as well and would be interested in hearing both speakers. I'm in the Southern suburbs of Melbourne and would be happy to have my place as the venue! Would also like to hear how they both compare to my speakers, which have a similar enclosure to the Thor TLs.
propstuff said:
I'm in Melbourne as well and would be interested in hearing both speakers. I'm in the Southern suburbs of Melbourne and would be happy to have my place as the venue!
Would also like to hear how they both compare to my speakers, which have a similar enclosure to the Thor TLs.
Hey Paul & Nicholas...
Will this meet be a closed shop affair? I also realise that whoever does host it wouldn't want half of Melbourne there, but I was thinking (Hoping) maybe a few stragglers may get an invite.
Don't fret I am just being forward and do understand not wanting strangers in your home.
Will this meet be a closed shop affair? I also realise that whoever does host it wouldn't want half of Melbourne there, but I was thinking (Hoping) maybe a few stragglers may get an invite.
Don't fret I am just being forward and do understand not wanting strangers in your home.
I doubt having too many coming is likely to be a problem. Unless there are more than you can seat, it would be great to get some more people along. We could even turn it into a BBQ, etc.
From a security point of view, I'd say it's a good idea that address details only go out to those who have confirmed by phone that they are coming. In the Melbourne Audio club they do this to avoid tipping off anyone with plans to steal some expensive audio gear.
From a security point of view, I'd say it's a good idea that address details only go out to those who have confirmed by phone that they are coming. In the Melbourne Audio club they do this to avoid tipping off anyone with plans to steal some expensive audio gear.
I would love to bring along some Thors, can I build them first
Seriously though catching up would be fantastic. Bringing the Thors wouldn't be before summer as I need to recover from my last speaker project and other related HT purchases and build them but catching up earlier is cool. Maybe we should get ourselves onto some sort of email list anyway, it would be fantastic to chew the fat with some like minded people, in the flesh.
Seriously though catching up would be fantastic. Bringing the Thors wouldn't be before summer as I need to recover from my last speaker project and other related HT purchases and build them but catching up earlier is cool. Maybe we should get ourselves onto some sort of email list anyway, it would be fantastic to chew the fat with some like minded people, in the flesh.
"honking" Thors
I recently built a set of SEAS Thors after reading the review in AudioXpress. The review could not say a bad thing about them. I bought the kit from Solen.ca. Total cost including the supplies to make the cabinets was aproximately $1700 (cdn). For this kind of money I was expecting great results.
Here's what I found:
- great bass extension with good detail (not sure what all the posts about these speakers lacking bass is about)
- good extension with the tweeter, somewhat airy sound
- a little shy in the upper mid-bass region (not the bass section tough)
- midrange is absolutely terrible!!!!
- the upper midrange/lower treble has a real honk or ringing sound to it - very harsh sounding
- because of the midrange resonances, I find this to be a very fatiguing speaker to listen to
I did build this speaker to the exact specifications that are listed in the AudioXpress article. I have since tried different amounts of stuffing as well as a couple of different x-over configurations.
- For those of you finding this speaker to be bass shy, try pulling out some of the stuffing.
- at the advice of Dennis Murphy (of www.murphyblaster.com), I did put a 1ohm resistor between the caps and the inductor on the high pass filter which helped tame the midrange a little (thanks for the advice Dennis).
Overall, I am really disappointed in these speakers especially considering the price. Perhaps I am spoiled. I am comparing these speakers to my 18 year old Infinity speakers which I paid $1500 for at the time. Amazing how well my old Infinity's have stood the test of time.
I'll be very interested to know what experiences other people have had with the SEAS kits (any SEAS kit). Perhaps someone has another suggestion for taming the midrange on these beasts as well.
Cheers.
I recently built a set of SEAS Thors after reading the review in AudioXpress. The review could not say a bad thing about them. I bought the kit from Solen.ca. Total cost including the supplies to make the cabinets was aproximately $1700 (cdn). For this kind of money I was expecting great results.
Here's what I found:
- great bass extension with good detail (not sure what all the posts about these speakers lacking bass is about)
- good extension with the tweeter, somewhat airy sound
- a little shy in the upper mid-bass region (not the bass section tough)
- midrange is absolutely terrible!!!!
- the upper midrange/lower treble has a real honk or ringing sound to it - very harsh sounding
- because of the midrange resonances, I find this to be a very fatiguing speaker to listen to
I did build this speaker to the exact specifications that are listed in the AudioXpress article. I have since tried different amounts of stuffing as well as a couple of different x-over configurations.
- For those of you finding this speaker to be bass shy, try pulling out some of the stuffing.
- at the advice of Dennis Murphy (of www.murphyblaster.com), I did put a 1ohm resistor between the caps and the inductor on the high pass filter which helped tame the midrange a little (thanks for the advice Dennis).
Overall, I am really disappointed in these speakers especially considering the price. Perhaps I am spoiled. I am comparing these speakers to my 18 year old Infinity speakers which I paid $1500 for at the time. Amazing how well my old Infinity's have stood the test of time.
I'll be very interested to know what experiences other people have had with the SEAS kits (any SEAS kit). Perhaps someone has another suggestion for taming the midrange on these beasts as well.
Cheers.
Attachments
I think that there is definetly something wrong with the Notch filter ( the RLC which is in parallel with the midbass drivers ). This filter is to vanish the high reasonance the metal cone drivers have at the upper mid region. Either something went wrong during the crossover construction, or they gave you parts with wrong values!!! ( its easy to make a mistake with a inductor for example. Make sure that the resistor of the RLC is very small value, if its a 15 ohm instead of 1 ohm for example , the notch filter will be much less effective!
You should examine the crossover carefully to see if there are wrong solderings anywhere, or wrong signal routes. Check also that the correct parts ( especially the inductors ) are connected correctly. If you dont find anything, you should do a frequency response measurement to see in practice that you have a flat frequency response (which i doubt, something went wrong with the RLC)
A safe way to build the crossover is to do it hardwired with the parts glued on a piece of mdf board. You can check the connections and trace any possible mistakes or bad soldering easy
Dont give up that easy, you ll fix it. And keep us updated, I was thinking of building a set with Excel drivers too..
You should examine the crossover carefully to see if there are wrong solderings anywhere, or wrong signal routes. Check also that the correct parts ( especially the inductors ) are connected correctly. If you dont find anything, you should do a frequency response measurement to see in practice that you have a flat frequency response (which i doubt, something went wrong with the RLC)
A safe way to build the crossover is to do it hardwired with the parts glued on a piece of mdf board. You can check the connections and trace any possible mistakes or bad soldering easy
Dont give up that easy, you ll fix it. And keep us updated, I was thinking of building a set with Excel drivers too..
I agree with you Boom Boom. I built Thors one year ago and that was a big mistake. There is nothing wrong with the notch filter, I have measured the speakers. I also tried 1 ohm resistor but there are still too much energy in the region 3-5kHz. On-axis response looks flat, but the problem lies at off-axis. I think, this can be seen in the AudioXpress article. The midrange could be much more detailed, I dont like it.
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