The M 222 : Tekton Design Seas Pendragon
How much can dive all those 6" Emminence togethers ? The standalone driver for the bass seems to have a Sd ridiculously low in relation to the rest... !
How much can dive all those 6" Emminence togethers ? The standalone driver for the bass seems to have a Sd ridiculously low in relation to the rest... !
As some of the pro's have pointed out: generelly, there's a trade-off between pin-point imaging vs. 'Perceived dynamics'. Don't shoot me for this statement, because it's a generalization pur sang.
A small high quality 2 way monitor will be great in portraying the musical events of the source material, due to its point-source nature.
With dynamic material like a large-scale orchestra you'll probably won't have the 'live experience' of let's say (to stay on topic) a JBL M2 (which is supposed to be great in the imaging department as well). You'll will need cone surface for a 'lifelike reproduction'
A high efficient 2 way (8" with comp. driver or dome @94dB and up) with an agile sub (no 15mm x-max here) could be a nice compromise.
Other examples to achieve these goals: wesayso's line array or BWaslo's synergy.
A small high quality 2 way monitor will be great in portraying the musical events of the source material, due to its point-source nature.
With dynamic material like a large-scale orchestra you'll probably won't have the 'live experience' of let's say (to stay on topic) a JBL M2 (which is supposed to be great in the imaging department as well). You'll will need cone surface for a 'lifelike reproduction'
A high efficient 2 way (8" with comp. driver or dome @94dB and up) with an agile sub (no 15mm x-max here) could be a nice compromise.
Other examples to achieve these goals: wesayso's line array or BWaslo's synergy.
And that level has a fixed value independent from the distance to the source?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ldfVlLk2wbM
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-0gED3rn2Tc
Interesting concept, though I guess these tweets should best be matched to cancel out inconcistencies. The sub's only duty is to cover the lowest octave's (=omni). The output of a single 18" will be less compared to these arrayed 6's. With active power and xo these issues can be fixed.
We are all prone to sacrifice different things. In my case, first requirement is that there is no need to shout to play music in a domestic context, so that i need detailed and refined sounding stuff, not power, nor high SPL.
Attenuating, clipping and compressing are not necessarily bad things for me, if the musical program is "too big" to fit my listenning space, the important thing not being "realistic" reproduction, but rather credible or simply convincing "portraying" ( as you said) of the real thing, which kind be done at a wide range of reduction scale.
In other words, I don't want invite those guys playing percussions in the street to play in my living room, i just want to listen at home their performance recorded in the street from a distance, and also capturing some of the ambient noises in the street. No need of a monster ghetto blaster like an M2 for this...
But of course i also understand that others are after...Moby Dick?
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A white M2 ? (do you mean at JBL they made "a merde" instead a mermaid ?)
As our living rooms are not exactly swimming pools, doctor says to listen again a VOTT A5...A7 if not the first at hands !
PS : this whale is a muddy "bique" (goat)!
So wish n°2 : it could be fun to listen to a M2 side by side with a VOTT ! Hard to copy the good subjective behavior of a VOTT between 60 Hz and 700 Hz (1000 Hz with A5?) ! I don't know what the pros say about this ?
As our living rooms are not exactly swimming pools, doctor says to listen again a VOTT A5...A7 if not the first at hands !
PS : this whale is a muddy "bique" (goat)!
So wish n°2 : it could be fun to listen to a M2 side by side with a VOTT ! Hard to copy the good subjective behavior of a VOTT between 60 Hz and 700 Hz (1000 Hz with A5?) ! I don't know what the pros say about this ?
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I just said too big size, too big sound and first of all too big money for me...
An externally hosted image should be here but it was not working when we last tested it.
to me, dynamism and fast transient seems to be very related. as in order to have realistic sound, the sound need to be very fast.
it seems the word dynamics doesnt have a clear and define meaning. why would a bigger woofer be more dynamic then a smaller? it almost seems in my experience that smaller drivers are more able to be fast and so realistic.
I have heard speakers that can reproduce at lifelike levels just fine cause of their big size, but always seems to sounds slowish in comparison with smaller drivers. what I think bigger woofer have over small is that the image is bigger and in that way the instruments appears bigger and more lifelike.
I have not heard state of the art 3 ways though as they are very pricey.
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I agree, but to guys that use the word "dynamics", (high) SPL usually matter a lot, while people less demanding on playing loud use other words like "transients"...
In the JBL case, M2 and sons, SPL over 120DB is a very big partof the selling proposal, if not the USP in the case of the low cost LSR models. These guys know their business good, no doubt...
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I agree, but to guys that use the word "dynamics", (high) SPL usually matter a lot, while people less demanding on playing loud use other words like "transients"...
In the JBL case, M2 and sons, SPL over 120DB is a very big partof the selling proposal, if not the USP in the case of the low cost LSR models. These guys know their business good, no doubt...
the thing is, SOTA three ways are very pricey. I wish I could heard ATC 150, geithain rl901k, B&W 80x, amphion krypton, harbeth 40.1, jbl everest and M2. maybe those are able to retain the qualities of small drivers with the advantage of bigger woofers.
but it seems the compromise is really serious and that smaller driver (8 inch or smaller) are able to reproduce the transients very true to the source, while bigger drivers struggle a bit more?
Ill very soon compare altec valentia, jbl lsr32, amphion one18, harbeth p3esr, tannoy 12 inch gold in the same room.
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True to the source ? What is this fuss all about? The old His Masters's Voice fairy tale, audio version of Moby Dick? For me it's simply all about illusion, though some tricks that work for some, don't for others...
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Compare? What for? The day after you won't remember the differences... Well, at least i won't.
Compare? What for? The day after you won't remember the differences... Well, at least i won't.
in the same room
. me and my dad have all those speakers and a whole lot more.ill also add a harbeth shl5+ when I can.
hifi aim is to reproduce as faithfully as possible what has been recorded and to be as transparent as possible.True to the source ? What is this fuss all about? The old His Masters's Voice fairy tale, audio version of Moby Dick? For me it's simply all about illusion, though some tricks that work for some, don't for others...
to me, a 10inch or 12 inch seems a bit slower then the source. a 5 inch have very fast transient response with very short decay, maybe even too fast and too short then the source. a 6.5 or 8 inch seems very true to the source.
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I was in the same boat for years. I couldn't figure out the appeal of Avantgarde horns.
But at CES this year, my second favorite system* was something similar to an Avantgarde Spherical horn. The thing that was so special about it was the dynamics. It's the only speaker I've ever heard where I literally jumped out of my seat, it was so dynamic the impact scared me :O
I don't listen to classical or well recorded music, I listen to EDM mostly and it's compressed badly, no dynamics. But I can see the appeal of a horn like that, for someone that listens to classical and wants to be blown out of their seat. Could also be very handy for home theater.
I think the 'secret' is that those LeCleach horns have impeccable impulse response, much better than a conical horn.
* My fav of the show was Beolab 90
Centuries ago, Calvin burnt in Geneva an ancestor of mine for discussing such an evidence. These are only words to me...
I am not picky at all about recording quality. As coronel Kilgore i also sometimes enjoy the sound of horns in the early morning, but usually prefer more relaxed listening, compressed sounding, etc...
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I have the LSR32's (which I enjoy immensely) but haven't heard the others, so I'd be interested in your comparison project. Please keep us updated.in the same room
ill also add a harbeth shl5+ when I can.
hifi aim is to reproduce as faithfully as possible what has been recorded and to be as transparent as possible.
to me, a 10inch or 12 inch seems a bit slower then the source. a 5 inch have very fast transient response with very short decay, maybe even too fast and too short then the source. a 6.5 or 8 inch seems very true to the source.
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I have the LSR32's (which I enjoy immensely) but haven't heard the others, so I'd be interested in your comparison project. Please keep us updated.
Hi Philo,
LSR32, one of my favorites Descartes!
Of course, this is a matter of physics.
To create low frequency output at high SPL, you have to move large quantities of air (Vd). A large cone area and high maximum cone excursion is needed. You can use a relatively small cone area with greater cone excursion or vice versa.
F=ma and therefore acceleration equals force divided by mass A powerful motor on a large heavy cone can exhibit better transient response than a lightweight cone with a less powerful motor. A light, large cone with a relatively powerful motor will further improve transient response and deliver cleaner mids.
+1
YkY is not wrong subjectively but I believe he is maybe listen to a low average volume and/or the room modes he has or the listening room is maybe well not suited for sound à la Onken/Altec/JBL.
DOn't forgett also than little drivers are limited by their thermal issues and despite watts and enough Xmax for the best 4" or 5" : they don't suffice to go lows : they collapse before. : play loud yes but with more compressed dynamic when you rise the volume. No secrets : with little drivers you need to multiplicate the number to increase the Sd like with an array ! : more Sd less cone travel ! At least there must be Something good with a little surface and coupling with air if no horn ???
I was a little like that all my speakers having relatvly low efficienty and Sd but if there is Something true with the soundstage of little drivers with mids and upper, easier integration in rooms as well, there is also Something a bit closed : dynamic, Flesch/meat (but not sure of this last as it can be understood as boomy)
I understand Patrtick as well with the horn he listened to! IMHO, those whom have a 8" horned in the upper bass and whom like acoustical live events know where they want to go ! While, it's true too : all the musics and reccording don't need such complicated speakers !
The relativ simplicity and lower price for a JBL in the M2 let people to talk to it a lot! People on the other pub made some for an acceptable price in DIY ! Dunno if now horn can be sourced from Speakerexchange yet !
YkY is not wrong subjectively but I believe he is maybe listen to a low average volume and/or the room modes he has or the listening room is maybe well not suited for sound à la Onken/Altec/JBL.
DOn't forgett also than little drivers are limited by their thermal issues and despite watts and enough Xmax for the best 4" or 5" : they don't suffice to go lows : they collapse before. : play loud yes but with more compressed dynamic when you rise the volume. No secrets : with little drivers you need to multiplicate the number to increase the Sd like with an array ! : more Sd less cone travel ! At least there must be Something good with a little surface and coupling with air if no horn ???
I was a little like that all my speakers having relatvly low efficienty and Sd but if there is Something true with the soundstage of little drivers with mids and upper, easier integration in rooms as well, there is also Something a bit closed : dynamic, Flesch/meat (but not sure of this last as it can be understood as boomy)
I understand Patrtick as well with the horn he listened to! IMHO, those whom have a 8" horned in the upper bass and whom like acoustical live events know where they want to go ! While, it's true too : all the musics and reccording don't need such complicated speakers !
The relativ simplicity and lower price for a JBL in the M2 let people to talk to it a lot! People on the other pub made some for an acceptable price in DIY ! Dunno if now horn can be sourced from Speakerexchange yet !
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