Fred, by whacking it with a screwdriver (my patent-pending excitation method), I'm subjecting it to several orders of magnitude more mechanical shock than it ever sees in service- including the vibration from the power transformer. Music or no music running through it, the amp remains unperturbed. What else can I want from it?
Microphonics in caps is more of an issue with poorly wound caps (some of the expensive brands are the worst offenders) and for precision low-level measurement circuits. Like my phono amp, where the tube microphonics will overwhelm anything else. Or that crappy interconnect I referred to earlier.
Microphonics in caps is more of an issue with poorly wound caps (some of the expensive brands are the worst offenders) and for precision low-level measurement circuits. Like my phono amp, where the tube microphonics will overwhelm anything else. Or that crappy interconnect I referred to earlier.
I know, but neither my 'scope nor my analyser tells me anything about how a competent circuit sounds, unfortunately.
SY, I prefer to assess things with the sound of music, rather than the sound of screwdrivers (good trick for PLL's though, especially those nice hexagonal ones rotated against a board)
Andy.
ALW said:
But how something sounds to a particular individual can involve more than just that which is physically taking place within the equipment (which is why placing photographs in freezers results in improved sound for some). So when making claims of actual physical behavior, "how it sounds" does not constitute any sort of meaningful proof of said claims nor of their actual audibility.
se
That's true, but I'm not trying to prove anything. Even if I demonstrated the measurable effect of vibration on solid-state electronics, we'd then debate whether it was audible.
My sole purpose here is to encourage others to listen / measure / analyse effects I know are relevant, along with a significant number of major designers and manufacturers out there.
Whether anyone takes any notice, is their problem. Although in the long term it may result in my not posting anything - I don't do this just to lead people up the garden path, purely to share knowledge. There's enough mumbo-jumbo in audio as it is, but it's possibly the most demanding discipline in electronics design anywhere, the reason there so much crap out there, is because so many believe it's simple and details don't matter.
In systems with sufficient resolution (read: ability to hear the effect) the effect of vibration on the electronics is clearly audible. Maybe those that can't hear it, haven't reached that point, or took design steps to deal with it, but I doubt it.
Andy.
Is it just my cynical nature or have I spotted something. It seems that claims that some magical unobtanium placed strategicly in or on an audio component will yield miraculosly earth shatering results but which can only be detect by the golden ear annointed ones, often come from the same quarter that claim cures for audio problems caused by variations in some material or process that is measurable only in nano-seconds and femto-volts or based on data from Fermi-Lab?
(I'm not giving specific examples because I don't want to start down one of those slippery slopes to discussion futiliy.)
(I'm not giving specific examples because I don't want to start down one of those slippery slopes to discussion futiliy.)
ALW said:
But the sonic effects of placing photographs of yourself in your freezer are also "clearly audible." Empty claims of "clearly audible" are a dime a dozen.
Where has it been shown to be ACTUALLY audible?
If addressing vibration issues results in that which sounds better to you, great. I address vibration issues in my designs as well for the same reason. But when it comes to objective claims of audibility, that puts things in a whole different ballpark and empty claims do not suffice as proof.
se
In my house
You tell me first how you PROVE it's audible.
By definition it involves listening (with ears), there's NO other way.
"audible
\Au"di*ble\, a. [LL. audibilis, fr. L. audire, auditum, to hear: cf. Gr. ? ear, L. auris, and E. ear.] Capable of being heard; loud enough to be heard; actually heard; as, an audible voice or whisper"
Please explain why the ******* we're having this exchange then
What is your purpose on this forum Steve - what are you contributing?
Andy.
Koinichiwa,
I have a friend who is sadly lacking in the spectrum analyser department (is there ANYONE in London who has ready access to something with 0-10MHz bandwidth and at leats 100db dynamic range I can borrow?), but he has two ears. And he considers me shouting in his ear inaudible, which if you ask anyone who knows me will attest to is definitly not the case (if I want to I do have a drill sergants voice).
Of course, my friend is deaf on some neural pathway ****, so little good does it to him to have two ears. Do I notice paralleles?
What is "audible" is a very personal thingm more over one of those things that are cultural and learned as much as they are informed and dominated by our personal fondly held believes.
For exapmple, one of my ex girlfriends insisted I was absolutely unable to hear her shouting at me, which is also absolutely true, yet more than 0.5mV 100Hz Hum on the outputs of my Amps with 97db/W/m speakers at 3m distance bothers me ( for the record, 0.5mV is 78db below the 4V that equal 1W into my speakers and with two speakers and 3m distance 0.5mV @ 100Hz equal around 16db absolute SPL....
Sayonara
SY said:
I have a friend who is sadly lacking in the spectrum analyser department (is there ANYONE in London who has ready access to something with 0-10MHz bandwidth and at leats 100db dynamic range I can borrow?), but he has two ears. And he considers me shouting in his ear inaudible, which if you ask anyone who knows me will attest to is definitly not the case (if I want to I do have a drill sergants voice).
Of course, my friend is deaf on some neural pathway ****, so little good does it to him to have two ears. Do I notice paralleles?
What is "audible" is a very personal thingm more over one of those things that are cultural and learned as much as they are informed and dominated by our personal fondly held believes.
For exapmple, one of my ex girlfriends insisted I was absolutely unable to hear her shouting at me, which is also absolutely true, yet more than 0.5mV 100Hz Hum on the outputs of my Amps with 97db/W/m speakers at 3m distance bothers me ( for the record, 0.5mV is 78db below the 4V that equal 1W into my speakers and with two speakers and 3m distance 0.5mV @ 100Hz equal around 16db absolute SPL....
Sayonara
Koinichiwa Andy,
You know what. We may not be able to agree on Naim Audio, Regulators or any other such minor issues, but the above, with suitable teutonic inflections and a slightly meaner sense of humor could have been written by me.
Tell you what, why don't we ditch this dive, go down some nice pub and have a talk, argument, disgreement and whatever else about if series, shunt or push-pull regulators are the only true way. The general level of discussion here stinks. My head hurts from having to think down that far... (just kidding).
Sayonara
PS, most of my friends have a saying - "You are starting to make perfect sense - now I'm worried!"
ALW said:
You know what. We may not be able to agree on Naim Audio, Regulators or any other such minor issues, but the above, with suitable teutonic inflections and a slightly meaner sense of humor could have been written by me.
Tell you what, why don't we ditch this dive, go down some nice pub and have a talk, argument, disgreement and whatever else about if series, shunt or push-pull regulators are the only true way. The general level of discussion here stinks. My head hurts from having to think down that far... (just kidding).
Sayonara
PS, most of my friends have a saying - "You are starting to make perfect sense - now I'm worried!"
ALW said:
Certainly it involves listening. But it also involves filtering out the effects expectation and other subjective biases which can cause us to perceive differences even in cases where no differences exist. Otherwise, we can't really know to a high degree of confidence whether the perceived differences were due to actual audible stimulus or to psychological aspects.
This is generally done by testing under double blind conditions and subsequent statistical analysis of the results to ascribe a level of confidence beyond chance guessing.
Please explain why the ******* we're having this exchange then
Because unlike you, I neither assume nor insist that my subjective perceptions are due to anything actually audible. I don't really know one way or the other. I do know that I'm a mortal human being the same as everyone else and subject to the same psychological influences as everyone else so to that end I can't rightly make any claims as to actual audiblity seeing as I've never bothered to take the appropriate steps to establish actual audibility (i.e. double blind testing).
I just know that when I do certain things I'm more satisfied with the result. And that's ultimately all that I care about regardless of WHY I'm getting the result I'm getting.
I'd like to think I'm contributing a bit of logic and reason. Is logic and reason considered offensive here?
se
You also read stuff I haven't written!
I also know that my subjective impressions can be affected by other factors, although pictures in the freezer is not one of them (bodies, maybe).
The point is though is it's irrelevant to the discussion. Hi Fi is about listening to music and over time the effect of external influence on perception is filtered, and can even be overcome partly by methodology.
Christopher,
I apologise unreservedly for not responding to this thread in the manner you required - there's plenty of evidence in the semi manufacturers data sheets about the vibration sensitivities of capacitors, but all that proves is the effect exists.
It tells nothing about how it sounds and I respectfully suggest that thinking something 98dB down is getting close to inaudible is what leads to most of the rubbish that passes for HiFi in the marketplace. You owe it to yourself, your music and your ears to move beyond the numbers and actually find out whether it's audible - you may be surprised.
But since that is not the remit here, I will retire as I cannot seperate the fact that HiFi is for listening to music, not measuring with test gear. How it sounds is ALL that matters to me.
Andy.
Re: An uphill battle
Koinichiwa,
I wish it did. But maybe we can do something about that....
AND
NOW
FOR
SOMETHING
COMPLETELY
DIFFERENT.
IT's
MONTY PYTHONS FLYING CIRCUS
("splat").....
The Pet Shop Sketch from "And Now For Something Completely Different"
A customer enters a pet shop.
Customer: 'Ello, I wish to register a complaint.
(The owner does not respond.)
C: 'Ello, Miss?
Owner: What do you mean "miss"?
C: <pause> I'm sorry, I have a cold. I wish to make a complaint!
O: We're closin' for lunch.
C: Never mind that, my lad. I wish to complain about this parrot what I purchased not half an hour ago from this very boutique.
O: Oh yes, the, uh, the Norwegian Blue...What's,uh...What's wrong with it?
C: I'll tell you what's wrong with it, my lad. 'E's dead, that's what's
wrong with it!
O: No, no, 'e's uh,...he's resting.
C: Look, matey, I know a dead parrot when I see one, and I'm looking at one right now.
O: No no he's not dead, he's, he's restin'! Remarkable bird, the Norwegian Blue, idn'it, ay? Beautiful plumage!
C: The plumage don't enter into it. It's stone dead.
O: Nononono, no, no! 'E's resting!
C: All right then, if he's restin', I'll wake him up! (shouting at the cage) 'Ello, Mister Polly Parrot! I've got a lovely fresh cuttle fish for you if you show...(owner hits the cage)
O: There, he moved!
C: No, he didn't, that was you hitting the cage!
O: I never!!
C: Yes, you did!
O: I never, never did anything...
C: (yelling and hitting the cage repeatedly) 'ELLO POLLY!!!!! Testing! Testing! Testing! Testing! This is your nine o'clock alarm call!
(Takes parrot out of the cage and thumps its head on the counter. Throws it up in the air and watches it plummet to the floor.)
C: Now that's what I call a dead parrot.
O: No, no.....No, 'e's stunned!
C: STUNNED?!?
O: Yeah! You stunned him, just as he was wakin' up! Norwegian Blues stun easily, major.
C: Um...now look...now look, mate, I've definitely 'ad enough of this. That parrot is definitely deceased, and when I purchased it not 'alf an hour ago, you assured me that its total lack of movement was due to it bein' tired and shagged out following a prolonged squawk.
O: Well, he's...he's, ah...probably pining for the fjords.
C: PININ' for the FJORDS?!?!?!? What kind of talk is that?, look, why did he fall flat on his back the moment I got 'im home?
O: The Norwegian Blue prefers keepin' on it's back! Remarkable bird, id'nit, squire? Lovely plumage!
C: Look, I took the liberty of examining that parrot when I got it home, and I discovered the only reason that it had been sitting on its perch in the first place was that it had been NAILED there.
(pause)
O: Well, o'course it was nailed there! If I hadn't nailed that bird down, it would have nuzzled up to those bars, bent 'em apart with its beak, and VOOM! Feeweeweewee!
C: "VOOM"?!? Mate, this bird wouldn't "voom" if you put four million volts through it! 'E's bleedin' demised!
O: No no! 'E's pining!
C: 'E's not pinin'! 'E's passed on! This parrot is no more! He has ceased to be! 'E's expired and gone to meet 'is maker! 'E's a stiff! Bereft of life, 'e rests in peace! If you hadn't nailed 'im to the perch 'e'd be pushing up the daisies! 'Is metabolic processes are now 'istory! 'E's off the twig! 'E's kicked the bucket, 'e's shuffled off 'is mortal coil, run down the curtain and joined the bleedin' choir invisibile!! THIS IS AN EX-PARROT!!
(pause)
O: Well, I'd better replace it, then. (he takes a quick peek behind the counter)
O: Sorry squire, I've had a look 'round the back of the shop, and uh, we're right out of parrots.
C: I see. I see, I get the picture.
O: <pause> I got a slug.
(pause)
C: (sweet as sugar) Pray, does it talk?
O: Nnnnot really.
C: WELL IT'S HARDLY A BLOODY REPLACEMENT, IS IT?!!???!!?
O: N-no, I guess not. (gets ashamed, looks at his feet)
C: Well.
(pause)
O: (quietly) D'you.... d'you want to come back to my place?
C: (looks around) Yeah, all right, sure.
(BTW, thhe whole thing is considerably funnier with Cleese & Chapman acting)
I suspect this thread is well on it's way to joining 1pcs of certified, pythonian Norwegian Blue Parrot....
'eere polly....
"'E's passed on! This thread is no more! It has ceased to be! 'E's expired and gone to meet 'is maker! 'E's a stiff! Bereft of life, 'e rests in peace! If you hadn't nailed 'im to the perch 'e'd be pushing up the daisies! 'Is metabolic processes are now 'istory! 'E's off the twig! 'E's kicked the bucket, 'e's shuffled off 'is mortal coil, run down the curtain and joined the bleedin' choir invisibile!! THIS IS AN EX-THREAD!!
Sayonara
Koinichiwa,
Fred Dieckmann said:
I wish it did. But maybe we can do something about that....
AND
NOW
FOR
SOMETHING
COMPLETELY
DIFFERENT.
IT's
MONTY PYTHONS FLYING CIRCUS
("splat").....
The Pet Shop Sketch from "And Now For Something Completely Different"
A customer enters a pet shop.
Customer: 'Ello, I wish to register a complaint.
(The owner does not respond.)
C: 'Ello, Miss?
Owner: What do you mean "miss"?
C: <pause> I'm sorry, I have a cold. I wish to make a complaint!
O: We're closin' for lunch.
C: Never mind that, my lad. I wish to complain about this parrot what I purchased not half an hour ago from this very boutique.
O: Oh yes, the, uh, the Norwegian Blue...What's,uh...What's wrong with it?
C: I'll tell you what's wrong with it, my lad. 'E's dead, that's what's
wrong with it!
O: No, no, 'e's uh,...he's resting.
C: Look, matey, I know a dead parrot when I see one, and I'm looking at one right now.
O: No no he's not dead, he's, he's restin'! Remarkable bird, the Norwegian Blue, idn'it, ay? Beautiful plumage!
C: The plumage don't enter into it. It's stone dead.
O: Nononono, no, no! 'E's resting!
C: All right then, if he's restin', I'll wake him up! (shouting at the cage) 'Ello, Mister Polly Parrot! I've got a lovely fresh cuttle fish for you if you show...(owner hits the cage)
O: There, he moved!
C: No, he didn't, that was you hitting the cage!
O: I never!!
C: Yes, you did!
O: I never, never did anything...
C: (yelling and hitting the cage repeatedly) 'ELLO POLLY!!!!! Testing! Testing! Testing! Testing! This is your nine o'clock alarm call!
(Takes parrot out of the cage and thumps its head on the counter. Throws it up in the air and watches it plummet to the floor.)
C: Now that's what I call a dead parrot.
O: No, no.....No, 'e's stunned!
C: STUNNED?!?
O: Yeah! You stunned him, just as he was wakin' up! Norwegian Blues stun easily, major.
C: Um...now look...now look, mate, I've definitely 'ad enough of this. That parrot is definitely deceased, and when I purchased it not 'alf an hour ago, you assured me that its total lack of movement was due to it bein' tired and shagged out following a prolonged squawk.
O: Well, he's...he's, ah...probably pining for the fjords.
C: PININ' for the FJORDS?!?!?!? What kind of talk is that?, look, why did he fall flat on his back the moment I got 'im home?
O: The Norwegian Blue prefers keepin' on it's back! Remarkable bird, id'nit, squire? Lovely plumage!
C: Look, I took the liberty of examining that parrot when I got it home, and I discovered the only reason that it had been sitting on its perch in the first place was that it had been NAILED there.
(pause)
O: Well, o'course it was nailed there! If I hadn't nailed that bird down, it would have nuzzled up to those bars, bent 'em apart with its beak, and VOOM! Feeweeweewee!
C: "VOOM"?!? Mate, this bird wouldn't "voom" if you put four million volts through it! 'E's bleedin' demised!
O: No no! 'E's pining!
C: 'E's not pinin'! 'E's passed on! This parrot is no more! He has ceased to be! 'E's expired and gone to meet 'is maker! 'E's a stiff! Bereft of life, 'e rests in peace! If you hadn't nailed 'im to the perch 'e'd be pushing up the daisies! 'Is metabolic processes are now 'istory! 'E's off the twig! 'E's kicked the bucket, 'e's shuffled off 'is mortal coil, run down the curtain and joined the bleedin' choir invisibile!! THIS IS AN EX-PARROT!!
(pause)
O: Well, I'd better replace it, then. (he takes a quick peek behind the counter)
O: Sorry squire, I've had a look 'round the back of the shop, and uh, we're right out of parrots.
C: I see. I see, I get the picture.
O: <pause> I got a slug.
(pause)
C: (sweet as sugar) Pray, does it talk?
O: Nnnnot really.
C: WELL IT'S HARDLY A BLOODY REPLACEMENT, IS IT?!!???!!?
O: N-no, I guess not. (gets ashamed, looks at his feet)
C: Well.
(pause)
O: (quietly) D'you.... d'you want to come back to my place?
C: (looks around) Yeah, all right, sure.
(BTW, thhe whole thing is considerably funnier with Cleese & Chapman acting)
I suspect this thread is well on it's way to joining 1pcs of certified, pythonian Norwegian Blue Parrot....
'eere polly....
"'E's passed on! This thread is no more! It has ceased to be! 'E's expired and gone to meet 'is maker! 'E's a stiff! Bereft of life, 'e rests in peace! If you hadn't nailed 'im to the perch 'e'd be pushing up the daisies! 'Is metabolic processes are now 'istory! 'E's off the twig! 'E's kicked the bucket, 'e's shuffled off 'is mortal coil, run down the curtain and joined the bleedin' choir invisibile!! THIS IS AN EX-THREAD!!
Sayonara
NOBODY EXPECTS MONTY PYTHON....
Koinichiwa,
This, If I may be so bold, is a fitting parallel to many who have commented in the Norwegion Blue, shagged out after a prolongerd squak of a thread....
Nudge Nudge, know what I mean, know what I mean! from the "Monty Python Live at City Center" album
Man: 'Evening, squire!
Squire: (stiffly) Good evening.
Man: Is, uh,...Is your wife a goer, eh? Know whatahmean, know whatahmean, nudge nudge, know whatahmean, say no more?
Squire: I, uh, I beg your pardon?
M: Your, uh, your wife, does she go, eh, does she go, eh?
S: (flustered) Well, she sometimes "goes", yes.
M: Aaaaaaaah bet she does, I bet she does, say no more, say no more, knowwhatahmean, nudge nudge?
S: (confused) I'm afraid I don't quite follow you.
M: Follow me. Follow me. That's good, that's good! A nod's as good as a wink to a blind bat!
S: Are you, uh,...are you selling something?
M: SELLING! Very good, very good! Ay? Ay? Ay?
(pause)
M: Oooh! Ya wicked Ay! Wicked Ay! Oooh hooh! Say No MORE!
S: Well, I, uh....
M: Is, your uh, is your wife a sport, ay?
S: Um, she likes sport, yes!
M: I bet she does, I bet she does!
S: As a matter of fact she's very fond of cricket.
M: 'Oo isn't? Likes games, eh? Knew she would. Likes games, eh? She's been around a bit, been around?
S: She has traveled, yes. She's from Scarsdale.
(pause)
M: SAY NO MORE!!
M: Scarsdale, saynomore, saynomore, saynomore, squire!
S: I wasn't going to!
M: Oh! Well, never mind. Dib dib? Is your uh, is your wife interested in....photography, ay? "Photographs, ay", he asked him knowlingly?
S: Photography?
M: Snap snap, grin grin, wink wink, nudge nudge, say no more?
S: Holiday snaps, eh?
M: They could be, they could be taken on holiday. Candid, you know, CANDID photography?
S: No, no I'm afraid we don't have a camera.
M: Oh. (leeringly) Still, mooooooh, ay? Mwoohohohohoo, ay? Hohohohohoho, ay?
S: Look... are you insinuating something?
M: Oh, no, no, no...yes.
S: Well?
M: Well, you're a man of the world, squire.
S: Yes...
M: I mean, you've been around a bit, you know, like, you've, uh.... You've "done it"....
S: What do you mean?
M: Well, I mean like,....you've SLEPT, with a lady....
S: Yes....
M: What's it like?
Sayonara
Koinichiwa,
This, If I may be so bold, is a fitting parallel to many who have commented in the Norwegion Blue, shagged out after a prolongerd squak of a thread....
Nudge Nudge, know what I mean, know what I mean! from the "Monty Python Live at City Center" album
Man: 'Evening, squire!
Squire: (stiffly) Good evening.
Man: Is, uh,...Is your wife a goer, eh? Know whatahmean, know whatahmean, nudge nudge, know whatahmean, say no more?
Squire: I, uh, I beg your pardon?
M: Your, uh, your wife, does she go, eh, does she go, eh?
S: (flustered) Well, she sometimes "goes", yes.
M: Aaaaaaaah bet she does, I bet she does, say no more, say no more, knowwhatahmean, nudge nudge?
S: (confused) I'm afraid I don't quite follow you.
M: Follow me. Follow me. That's good, that's good! A nod's as good as a wink to a blind bat!
S: Are you, uh,...are you selling something?
M: SELLING! Very good, very good! Ay? Ay? Ay?
(pause)
M: Oooh! Ya wicked Ay! Wicked Ay! Oooh hooh! Say No MORE!
S: Well, I, uh....
M: Is, your uh, is your wife a sport, ay?
S: Um, she likes sport, yes!
M: I bet she does, I bet she does!
S: As a matter of fact she's very fond of cricket.
M: 'Oo isn't? Likes games, eh? Knew she would. Likes games, eh? She's been around a bit, been around?
S: She has traveled, yes. She's from Scarsdale.
(pause)
M: SAY NO MORE!!
M: Scarsdale, saynomore, saynomore, saynomore, squire!
S: I wasn't going to!
M: Oh! Well, never mind. Dib dib? Is your uh, is your wife interested in....photography, ay? "Photographs, ay", he asked him knowlingly?
S: Photography?
M: Snap snap, grin grin, wink wink, nudge nudge, say no more?
S: Holiday snaps, eh?
M: They could be, they could be taken on holiday. Candid, you know, CANDID photography?
S: No, no I'm afraid we don't have a camera.
M: Oh. (leeringly) Still, mooooooh, ay? Mwoohohohohoo, ay? Hohohohohoho, ay?
S: Look... are you insinuating something?
M: Oh, no, no, no...yes.
S: Well?
M: Well, you're a man of the world, squire.
S: Yes...
M: I mean, you've been around a bit, you know, like, you've, uh.... You've "done it"....
S: What do you mean?
M: Well, I mean like,....you've SLEPT, with a lady....
S: Yes....
M: What's it like?
Sayonara
.......he said knowingly
S: Look... are you insinuating something?
M: Oh, no, no, no...yes.
S: Well?
M: Well, you're a man of the world, squire.
S: Yes...
M: I mean, you've been around a bit, you know, like, you've, uh.... You've "done it"....
S: What do you mean?
M: Well, I mean like,....you've listened to capacitors....
S: Yes....
M: What's it like?
S: Look... are you insinuating something?
M: Oh, no, no, no...yes.
S: Well?
M: Well, you're a man of the world, squire.
S: Yes...
M: I mean, you've been around a bit, you know, like, you've, uh.... You've "done it"....
S: What do you mean?
M: Well, I mean like,....you've listened to capacitors....
S: Yes....
M: What's it like?
Christer said:
Which merely illustrated once again that some people here have uncontrollable urges to sabotage anything resembling respectful argument as if they were members of the audio equivalent of Hamas or something.
"What? There's a respectful argument going on? Quick! Strap that bomb to my chest! JIIIIIHAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAADDDDDDDD!"
*sigh*
se
Koinichiwa Eddy San,
I did not wish to saboutage a "anything resembling respectful argument". I merely pointed out that there was nothing to argue about and a lot of those who did the arguing should have known better if they really where as experienced and learned as their continued condescedtion towards others as well as their continued heckling against "unorthodox" issues seems to suggest to the less experienced and well read contributors on this board.
You can only have an argument about things that are not fully known. Anything that is documented and know is fact. And the fact is that many involved in this argument illustrated complete ignorance of facts. It was that which finally prompted me to reply, namely an argument about a simple and well ddocumented phenomenae and whenever people with no idea what they are talking about arguing about facts my patience is non existent.
Sayonara
Steve Eddy said:
I did not wish to saboutage a "anything resembling respectful argument". I merely pointed out that there was nothing to argue about and a lot of those who did the arguing should have known better if they really where as experienced and learned as their continued condescedtion towards others as well as their continued heckling against "unorthodox" issues seems to suggest to the less experienced and well read contributors on this board.
You can only have an argument about things that are not fully known. Anything that is documented and know is fact. And the fact is that many involved in this argument illustrated complete ignorance of facts. It was that which finally prompted me to reply, namely an argument about a simple and well ddocumented phenomenae and whenever people with no idea what they are talking about arguing about facts my patience is non existent.
Sayonara
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