No, Sy I don't.
But, if we did would we know which one to use? We could choose the one we like. But, I don't believe we could choose the one that is the most realistic reflection of the true sound.
Maybe with this discussion we are proposing to tuning violins in a sense. Violin tuning is an art and not engineering. You can not put it on paper and hand it to a reasonably informed individual and have him build one close to the one you made.
Audio system components do have a signature sound, even if it can only be described as neutral. Enough has been published to enable a reasonably informed designer to produce his sound of choice. This has been true for 20 years. There is no magic or mystery in the components. You study the material, pay your money, and take your choice.
The real problem is that three times as much has been published on the same material mystify the facts and confusing the relationships to the point it is difficult at best to separate the facts from the fiction.
Possibly we are arguing the differences between art and science. Art is passed on from a master to a student. Science is put in a book and the student digs it out with the help of someone that has been through it before.
To bring the discussion into context, DIY audio would, by its nature, require the disciplines of engineering and science. The form we are using precludes the master to student discipline of art, whether or not the art of violin tuning is applicable to DIY audio.
But, if we did would we know which one to use? We could choose the one we like. But, I don't believe we could choose the one that is the most realistic reflection of the true sound.
Maybe with this discussion we are proposing to tuning violins in a sense. Violin tuning is an art and not engineering. You can not put it on paper and hand it to a reasonably informed individual and have him build one close to the one you made.
Audio system components do have a signature sound, even if it can only be described as neutral. Enough has been published to enable a reasonably informed designer to produce his sound of choice. This has been true for 20 years. There is no magic or mystery in the components. You study the material, pay your money, and take your choice.
The real problem is that three times as much has been published on the same material mystify the facts and confusing the relationships to the point it is difficult at best to separate the facts from the fiction.
Possibly we are arguing the differences between art and science. Art is passed on from a master to a student. Science is put in a book and the student digs it out with the help of someone that has been through it before.
To bring the discussion into context, DIY audio would, by its nature, require the disciplines of engineering and science. The form we are using precludes the master to student discipline of art, whether or not the art of violin tuning is applicable to DIY audio.
Sy wrote :"Can you get one of those 'reasonably informed designers' to accurately duplicate the three-dimensional sound field present at a live concert into a living room?"
I think this can not be done. Inherently. Best that can be achieved is a passable illusion. To try to reproduce the sound field that was present at a live performance is IMHO a fool's errand. Reproduced music should be considered it's own artistic work rather than merely an attempt at archival reproduction. I think Glenn Gould knew this when he abondaonded live performance for recording. Much studio produced music produces a work that has no existance expect in playback.
As for reality: "The Iliad" does not give you an experience indistinquishable from actually being at the gates of Troy. Attending a stage plays will not give you an experience instinguishable from a literary work. A motion picture will never replicate standing in the pit at Stratford. Television will never be the same as sitting in the third row for "Saving Private Ryan" which in turn is totally distinguishable from actually being on Omaha Beach.
You will never get Herbert von Karajan or the Rolling Stones in your living room. However, if the media (CD, SACD, vinyl record) as deliverd by the artist and technicians is considered an artistic work in of itself, I would like to be able to reproduce it with as little added content (such as noise and harmonics) as possible. If then I choose to alter this to my taste, I prefer to be in some semblance of control rather than relying on the sonic taste of a preamp or amp designer who bases his circuits on novelty and metaphisics.
I think this can not be done. Inherently. Best that can be achieved is a passable illusion. To try to reproduce the sound field that was present at a live performance is IMHO a fool's errand. Reproduced music should be considered it's own artistic work rather than merely an attempt at archival reproduction. I think Glenn Gould knew this when he abondaonded live performance for recording. Much studio produced music produces a work that has no existance expect in playback.
As for reality: "The Iliad" does not give you an experience indistinquishable from actually being at the gates of Troy. Attending a stage plays will not give you an experience instinguishable from a literary work. A motion picture will never replicate standing in the pit at Stratford. Television will never be the same as sitting in the third row for "Saving Private Ryan" which in turn is totally distinguishable from actually being on Omaha Beach.
You will never get Herbert von Karajan or the Rolling Stones in your living room. However, if the media (CD, SACD, vinyl record) as deliverd by the artist and technicians is considered an artistic work in of itself, I would like to be able to reproduce it with as little added content (such as noise and harmonics) as possible. If then I choose to alter this to my taste, I prefer to be in some semblance of control rather than relying on the sonic taste of a preamp or amp designer who bases his circuits on novelty and metaphisics.
Sam, that's my point exactly. We don't know how to do that, and the knowledge of correlating measurement with the quality of illusion that we have done so is rather incomplete.
This is a FAR cry from saying that we have to keep an open mind toward things like magic goop painted on chips. Ken Kantor (a guy I respect a great deal) pointed out in an interview that the illusion of reality is much more than trying to figure out how to get the distortion of an amplifier a few thousandths of a percent lower. Unless one has done something extremely stupid in an amp design, the capacitor type (within reason) will not have much to do with the system sound.
This is a FAR cry from saying that we have to keep an open mind toward things like magic goop painted on chips. Ken Kantor (a guy I respect a great deal) pointed out in an interview that the illusion of reality is much more than trying to figure out how to get the distortion of an amplifier a few thousandths of a percent lower. Unless one has done something extremely stupid in an amp design, the capacitor type (within reason) will not have much to do with the system sound.
Easy- no tubes. The three solid state amps I have on hand (modded Adcom 555, Bryston something-or-other, the small amp, Crown 150A) show no evidence of microphonics, either audibly or on the 'scope, when I perform a percussive excitation. My two tube amps (SY's Most Excellent Little Triode Amp and SY's Most Excellent Big Triode Amp) show some microphonics when the input tubes are tapped, but no response when the chassis is percussed.
I do have some interconnects that are horribly microphonic, but that was easy to fix. I just made another set with less exotic wire.
If you make a fortune from this, please send me 10%.
Whilst that may well be the case, a 'scope has insufficient resolution for the task.
Try placing the amp on two radically different surfaces (say a table and then a cushion) and listen to some music. On every bit of solid-state electronics I've ever heard this has audible consequences.
Andy.
What you don't know won't hurt you.........
I haven't gone and measured the microphonic level of the caps in my amp, but since the amp is itself nonmicrophonic, why bother?
Sigh.......
The microphonics can be induced by the signal though the cap. I guess you don't have any transformer vibration in your amps either. Whack it harder and put some more gain in your measurement circuit. BTW, where do you think babies come from.......
Microphonics in a solid state circuit? Never happens........ oh wait a minute, I just remembered something.
Analog Circuit Design: Art, Science and Personalities
by Jim Williams (Editor)
page 283
I haven't gone and measured the microphonic level of the caps in my amp, but since the amp is itself nonmicrophonic, why bother?
Sigh.......
The microphonics can be induced by the signal though the cap. I guess you don't have any transformer vibration in your amps either. Whack it harder and put some more gain in your measurement circuit. BTW, where do you think babies come from.......
Microphonics in a solid state circuit? Never happens........ oh wait a minute, I just remembered something.
Analog Circuit Design: Art, Science and Personalities
by Jim Williams (Editor)
page 283
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