John, your thoughts here are almost exactly what occured to me when I read that question- audio design is a business, not a science. High-end audio design is a trade, not just a business. You can give someone the basics, but past that, it's up to them to create something.
A very smart and successful designer described his work as being in the entertainment business, and he's dead right.
A very smart and successful designer described his work as being in the entertainment business, and he's dead right.
SY, I am in the business of serving the audio public. The only 'entertainment' that I provide is being laughed at by others who are not as successful in making audio products. I usually get along fine with my competitors, who are on this website, as we respect each other, even if we do not agree on every detail. What I try to do is to make circuits that give people extra pleasure, much like homemade ice cream or a good tasting wine, compared to the cheapest variety of either. Midfi gives you the 'cost effective' store bought variety.
I suspect the main reason why there is a dearth of books on power amp. design from the subjectivist camp is that there really is no consensus on what constitutes 'best-practice' among subjectivists.
Moreover, publishing subjective 'observations' that cannot be indepedently verified would inevitably expose such authors to redicule....
Moreover, publishing subjective 'observations' that cannot be indepedently verified would inevitably expose such authors to redicule....
SY said:
Entertainment? Designing a circuit from first principals, and knowing why, (and just as important, being able to demonstrate why), it's performance is state-of-the-art......
A fine example of such entertainment:
http://home.comcast.net/~andy_c_public/
SY, I hope that you can make a great wine from Safeway grapes, and sell it below $2.00/bottle. Heck, it's only fermented grape juice. ;-)
It is the same with audio design. Actually, there are a great number of parallels from all over the word as to how to make a great audio circuit. I never cease to be amazed, for example, how many people have discovered Roderstein resistors and their sound quality in audio products. Yes, they are costly, maybe 5-10 cents each in reasonable quantity. Too high for mid fi.
As far as differences in designers are concerned, those who make the good stuff, usually share many factors, such as class A, if possible, that tubes work darn good, etc. Where we differ is what makes a 'horse race' If everything were exactly the same, we would not be in business. If for example, there was only one standard circuit, it would be unproductive for us to build it separately, it would be given to some mid fi mass producer.
Mikeks is way off base as to our motives and opinions as to what makes a successful audio design. It is this sort of attitude that keeps open discussion down, and many serious designers off this website.
It is the same with audio design. Actually, there are a great number of parallels from all over the word as to how to make a great audio circuit. I never cease to be amazed, for example, how many people have discovered Roderstein resistors and their sound quality in audio products. Yes, they are costly, maybe 5-10 cents each in reasonable quantity. Too high for mid fi.
As far as differences in designers are concerned, those who make the good stuff, usually share many factors, such as class A, if possible, that tubes work darn good, etc. Where we differ is what makes a 'horse race' If everything were exactly the same, we would not be in business. If for example, there was only one standard circuit, it would be unproductive for us to build it separately, it would be given to some mid fi mass producer.
Mikeks is way off base as to our motives and opinions as to what makes a successful audio design. It is this sort of attitude that keeps open discussion down, and many serious designers off this website.
John, I think you're misunderstanding me. A Volkswagen gets me efficiently from Benicia to Berkeley. But it's entertaining to own and drive a Ferrari. You provide products that entertain people. That's a different industry than the cheap commodity stuff. Unless you're designing rack systems for Sansui on the side and have been keeping that a secret from me...
To use your wine analogy, I can go work for Gallo and what I'm doing is making commodity wine. That's meant for people to drink, not to obsess over, to covet, to discuss, to debate. You want all those other things, you're buying wine from Ponsot, from Rayas, from Romanee-Conti, from Michel Ogier (plug). These are two different things done two different ways for two different functions.
To use your wine analogy, I can go work for Gallo and what I'm doing is making commodity wine. That's meant for people to drink, not to obsess over, to covet, to discuss, to debate. You want all those other things, you're buying wine from Ponsot, from Rayas, from Romanee-Conti, from Michel Ogier (plug). These are two different things done two different ways for two different functions.
john curl said:
Now let's see.....What 'sort of attitude' are you refering to here?
Is it not true that subjectivists tend not to agree on virtually anything?....With the notable exception that 'subjectivism' is a good thing in itself....?
Is it not true that virtually all of the views espoused by most subjectivists cannot be independently verified?
Is it not true that subjective impressions from a given listening session will be heavily influenced by ambient conditions, the listeners state of mind, body, spirit.....etc...more than the merits or lack of the audio system?
An 'open' discussion from my perspective must of neccesity, cover all these issues, and more besides, in a convincing fashion......
Similarly, such rigorous discussion should attract, and not repel 'serious' designers worth their salt........
SY, I have designed at every level. I once designed the amp replacement for the NAB approved 'All American Five' kitchen radio. Cost was $1.00 for parts. Worked pretty good too!
I want to make this clear:
I make audio equipment that most accurately reproduces recorded music as best that I can do at EVERY price point. I NEVER add distortion or allow extra distortion to remain for some subjective reason, nor do I allow my associates to do so with my designs. I always try to make the best out of what I have available.
The difference between many others in mid-fi and myself, is that I put the money were it counts, such as in Roderstein resistors, rather than 2 for a penny devices that look similar, if and when I can. With Parasound, I often have a limited role with the lower priced components, but I often can chose the IC's and eliminate the ceramic caps from the circuit. This puts me ahead of the pack, already.
I am NOT making musical instruments, but music conveyers that get you as close to the original performance as possible. This precludes making a component 'musical' in some way, on purpose.
I want to make this clear:
I make audio equipment that most accurately reproduces recorded music as best that I can do at EVERY price point. I NEVER add distortion or allow extra distortion to remain for some subjective reason, nor do I allow my associates to do so with my designs. I always try to make the best out of what I have available.
The difference between many others in mid-fi and myself, is that I put the money were it counts, such as in Roderstein resistors, rather than 2 for a penny devices that look similar, if and when I can. With Parasound, I often have a limited role with the lower priced components, but I often can chose the IC's and eliminate the ceramic caps from the circuit. This puts me ahead of the pack, already.
I am NOT making musical instruments, but music conveyers that get you as close to the original performance as possible. This precludes making a component 'musical' in some way, on purpose.
Hi,
Shouldn't that be the ultimate goal of all audio designers?
I mean, where are we going if we actually add distortions (not just the currently measurable ones) to please the "audience" ?
Unfortunately, be that consciously or not, lots of people seem to be looking for euphonic distortions of the "benign" kind just to enjoy music more.
Nothing wrong with that per se of course but it seems to be taking on rather epidemic proportions lately.
Granted digital sources are ruthlessly exposing of other flaws at times, can be too thin and harsh sounding but wouldn't it be more appropriate if we'd look at what goes wrong there instead of inventing all kinds of sonic band-aids?
How can we probably judge a loudspeaker, a CDP, whatever, if our preamp/amplifier is already adding its own set of sonic deviations from the truth?
I wonder....
Cheers,
P.S. What's so special about Roederstein resistors?
This is the Resista range that's being referred to I assume.
Shouldn't that be the ultimate goal of all audio designers?
I mean, where are we going if we actually add distortions (not just the currently measurable ones) to please the "audience" ?
Unfortunately, be that consciously or not, lots of people seem to be looking for euphonic distortions of the "benign" kind just to enjoy music more.
Nothing wrong with that per se of course but it seems to be taking on rather epidemic proportions lately.
Granted digital sources are ruthlessly exposing of other flaws at times, can be too thin and harsh sounding but wouldn't it be more appropriate if we'd look at what goes wrong there instead of inventing all kinds of sonic band-aids?
How can we probably judge a loudspeaker, a CDP, whatever, if our preamp/amplifier is already adding its own set of sonic deviations from the truth?
I wonder....
Cheers,
P.S. What's so special about Roederstein resistors?
This is the Resista range that's being referred to I assume.
What I meant is that succesfull electronic engineers have to know how semiconductor devices work in principle (and I am pretty sure that Mr Curl and Mr Nelseon know this). The book I was refering to does tell one how to make electrical models etc. for bipolar and FET-devices, as well as diodes etc. It's NOT a book only for those who wish to design bipolar devices from sctrach. I can't do that, nor am I interested in doing so. I am pretty pleased by designing audio electronics
Nope. It was cleaner, but still had that pesky copyright. If the cartoons are up on the web, it's perfectly OK to link to them.
fdegrove said:
Agree completely. Unfortunately, I think the audience often expects certain things, such as "simpler means it has less distortion", even though it may have more distortion than a more complex circuit. Though admittedly it's usually more difficult to get good transient behavior out of a more complex circuit than a simpler one.
Hi,
That may be true for the general public at large yet, in the tube amplifier scene at least, more and morepeople are accepting lousy distortion figures (~5% not uncommon) and certain colourations, provided the endresult is "musical".
I can live with that.
In fact we all tend to veer from one extreme to the other and more often than not the truth is to be found somewhere in the middle.
IMO too many designers focus on distortion figures alone and in their persuit lose track of reality.
Music isn't just about distortion figures, it's also about noise or lack thereof, dynamic range, both macro and micro dynamics, upward scale and downward scale, a respect for the pitch of the music and so many other aspects that attempt at convincing us it's music.
Unfortunately, getting one aspect reproduced correctly often means losing another in the process.
Hence the current tendency, with tube electronics anyway, to keep things as "einsteinianly" simple as possible.
Some are more succesful at this concept than others, some coming close to accuracy, some going totally overboard....
Oddly enough it's seldom those with impressive distortion figures that sound "musically correct" nor accurate.
Not sure if I'm the only one noticing this but since the advent of the internet I see more and more "cross-over" designs (in the sense of ideas used in one particular field tried out in others and vice versa) bringing some "new" ideas and a fresh breeze of so called innovative implementations to both solid state and tube electronics...
Some of them definetely "keepers", others downright desperate attempts at standing out from the crowd with no particular sonic benefit whatsoever.
Has anyone ever been fooled by an audio system into thinking it was a real piano playing instead of a recorded one?
I know I haven't.
I also know that whenever that would happen I wouldn't give a rats a*s whether that system was producing x% distortion or x+1% for that matter...
By which I don't mean to imply "Viva Distortion" either, just that we're not out of the woods yet as far as figures and music go...
Cheers,
That may be true for the general public at large yet, in the tube amplifier scene at least, more and morepeople are accepting lousy distortion figures (~5% not uncommon) and certain colourations, provided the endresult is "musical".
I can live with that.
In fact we all tend to veer from one extreme to the other and more often than not the truth is to be found somewhere in the middle.
IMO too many designers focus on distortion figures alone and in their persuit lose track of reality.
Music isn't just about distortion figures, it's also about noise or lack thereof, dynamic range, both macro and micro dynamics, upward scale and downward scale, a respect for the pitch of the music and so many other aspects that attempt at convincing us it's music.
Unfortunately, getting one aspect reproduced correctly often means losing another in the process.
Hence the current tendency, with tube electronics anyway, to keep things as "einsteinianly" simple as possible.
Some are more succesful at this concept than others, some coming close to accuracy, some going totally overboard....
Oddly enough it's seldom those with impressive distortion figures that sound "musically correct" nor accurate.
Not sure if I'm the only one noticing this but since the advent of the internet I see more and more "cross-over" designs (in the sense of ideas used in one particular field tried out in others and vice versa) bringing some "new" ideas and a fresh breeze of so called innovative implementations to both solid state and tube electronics...
Some of them definetely "keepers", others downright desperate attempts at standing out from the crowd with no particular sonic benefit whatsoever.
Has anyone ever been fooled by an audio system into thinking it was a real piano playing instead of a recorded one?
I know I haven't.
I also know that whenever that would happen I wouldn't give a rats a*s whether that system was producing x% distortion or x+1% for that matter...
By which I don't mean to imply "Viva Distortion" either, just that we're not out of the woods yet as far as figures and music go...
Cheers,
There is some confusion here. It is NOT how much distortion that you have (within reason) BUT how complex the distortion is. Complicated circuits (and complex feedback) usually make complex distortion, composed of a long string of higher order components as well as FM modulation. Simple circuits, designed properly, usually just have lower order distortion, and even though it might be easily measurable, it will either not be really audible or perhaps slightly different from the original in an easy to live with way.
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