el`Ol said:
Energy is energy, you don't get more out than you input. With power amps you are just implementing a method to control electrical power from the wall to make it become something like a volatage controlled voltage source. If you don't need so much acoustic energy, more capability will not seem different because you will not use it.
All to true, BUT...
Yes this is true except several other factors come into play like dynamic compression and larger signal linearity. All things being equal more power will indeed sound better for these reasons. Even at low volumes the sound will be more natural and open with the sense of effortlessness like what the UcD amps are so good at. This may be totally overlooked till the more powerful amp is put into the system. There is also the source impedance issue at work here reflected through the amp and into its power supply. This gives us a sense of the amp having more control.
Roger
soongsc said:
Yes this is true except several other factors come into play like dynamic compression and larger signal linearity. All things being equal more power will indeed sound better for these reasons. Even at low volumes the sound will be more natural and open with the sense of effortlessness like what the UcD amps are so good at. This may be totally overlooked till the more powerful amp is put into the system. There is also the source impedance issue at work here reflected through the amp and into its power supply. This gives us a sense of the amp having more control.
Roger
too much info
Hi all.
I was very undecided about posting this as I might get not well understood. This is not a post about which of the switch D class amps is best sounding or anything else. This is about you helping judge me what is best FOR ME, my application and my knowledge of DIY.
I recently finished to build an tractrix 150Hz front horn for my tweaked Fostex 206E. I aslo cleaned up my system - I do not have anything. I am building from scratch but did have modified Musical Fidelity A1 and also tweaked CD57 MKII from Marantz. I want to do justice to my new speakers - they are too revealing and huge sounding to be connected to that humble system.
My main objective is to build the system for music. Not hi-fi tweaking-all-time-purpose but me and music. I want to enjoy it for some years and expand the CD collection.
I started to look for simple valve amp kits but as before I did not go that way. It seems just to demanding - I would start experimenting with valves and cables and it runs too hot also. The same goes for A class - must say that A1 always if not compared to other A class amp sounded more unboxy and musical then all commercial AB amps up to 700$. That is what kept me keepin´ it. But in this research for the new I found SI T-amp. Raving about this people that had it forgot about what all this is. I wanted a bigger picture but got messed up. I dug deeper and found out some other kit modules out there. I already had my Visa card next to me to buy particulary easy to assemble kit with PS and all but then I found this page. That was 5 days ago and I read almost all your threads about D calss amps but... I was devastated because could not understand too many things. What bothered me is that I am still used to thinking that 20W is enough as my horns are approx. 98dB of sensitivity and 105W pch from 180 is !!!!!!! for me. And I just wanted to end up with this hi-fi fewer and enjoy the music - now whole new area of amps opened up. It seems that everything is around - with cheap amps from 41Hz and DIYParadise (charlize) alike the noise would be too high for horns but with Hypex ucd180 the power seems unreasonable wates and too high but the noise level is better. Still how much of the volume pot is going to be used with ucd180? So here they go:
-for the needed power level (say 25W pch is enough) all of the cheaper amps such as amp3 and Charlize are Ok but what about the background noise level?
-as far I did not hear anything about music/emotional impact of any of the amp; it seems that just everybody is concerned with techicalities and hi-fi terms such as width and depth of soundstage, silky highs and fluid mids...
-and yes I know this is subjective but everything you say always will be and people like more to hear what other are feeling about smth especially if they could not feel, hear or see them (that is what web is all about anyway, if emotional element is substracted from the measurements then they serve more for the tool and machine interaction then us)
-I do not have a clue engineering so messing a lot around the amp is not my purpose - and I decided not to go that way remember (that excludes tweaking as intuition is still the best tool and fastets way to make your own taste jumping out of joy)
-my budget for the amp is limited to 400€ (600 are going to CD player)
uf, I now, I now, nothing new, maybe this post is so I can start a conversation...
do not get me wrong, I had to post this threa, maybe in some days on, I will exactly know what I have to do
t11
regarding Ucd180: this question is probably a bit off; is it possible to use UcD180 as a single modul operating in stereo mode or is dual mono a must?
Hi all.
I was very undecided about posting this as I might get not well understood. This is not a post about which of the switch D class amps is best sounding or anything else. This is about you helping judge me what is best FOR ME, my application and my knowledge of DIY.
I recently finished to build an tractrix 150Hz front horn for my tweaked Fostex 206E. I aslo cleaned up my system - I do not have anything. I am building from scratch but did have modified Musical Fidelity A1 and also tweaked CD57 MKII from Marantz. I want to do justice to my new speakers - they are too revealing and huge sounding to be connected to that humble system.
My main objective is to build the system for music. Not hi-fi tweaking-all-time-purpose but me and music. I want to enjoy it for some years and expand the CD collection.
I started to look for simple valve amp kits but as before I did not go that way. It seems just to demanding - I would start experimenting with valves and cables and it runs too hot also. The same goes for A class - must say that A1 always if not compared to other A class amp sounded more unboxy and musical then all commercial AB amps up to 700$. That is what kept me keepin´ it. But in this research for the new I found SI T-amp. Raving about this people that had it forgot about what all this is. I wanted a bigger picture but got messed up. I dug deeper and found out some other kit modules out there. I already had my Visa card next to me to buy particulary easy to assemble kit with PS and all but then I found this page. That was 5 days ago and I read almost all your threads about D calss amps but... I was devastated because could not understand too many things. What bothered me is that I am still used to thinking that 20W is enough as my horns are approx. 98dB of sensitivity and 105W pch from 180 is !!!!!!! for me. And I just wanted to end up with this hi-fi fewer and enjoy the music - now whole new area of amps opened up. It seems that everything is around - with cheap amps from 41Hz and DIYParadise (charlize) alike the noise would be too high for horns but with Hypex ucd180 the power seems unreasonable wates and too high but the noise level is better. Still how much of the volume pot is going to be used with ucd180? So here they go:
-for the needed power level (say 25W pch is enough) all of the cheaper amps such as amp3 and Charlize are Ok but what about the background noise level?
-as far I did not hear anything about music/emotional impact of any of the amp; it seems that just everybody is concerned with techicalities and hi-fi terms such as width and depth of soundstage, silky highs and fluid mids...
-and yes I know this is subjective but everything you say always will be and people like more to hear what other are feeling about smth especially if they could not feel, hear or see them (that is what web is all about anyway, if emotional element is substracted from the measurements then they serve more for the tool and machine interaction then us)
-I do not have a clue engineering so messing a lot around the amp is not my purpose - and I decided not to go that way remember (that excludes tweaking as intuition is still the best tool and fastets way to make your own taste jumping out of joy)
-my budget for the amp is limited to 400€ (600 are going to CD player)
uf, I now, I now, nothing new, maybe this post is so I can start a conversation...
do not get me wrong, I had to post this threa, maybe in some days on, I will exactly know what I have to do
t11
regarding Ucd180: this question is probably a bit off; is it possible to use UcD180 as a single modul operating in stereo mode or is dual mono a must?
Hi T11,
maybe this will help you decide. UcD modules are also available localy. Here is the link . I have found the link after I bought my UcD400 modules, so I do not know quality of the supplier. But maybe you can start with one module, and if you like it buy another one. This way you can avoid double transportation expenses. Maybe you can even get unit on loan.
Technically, UcD180 is mono module, but two modules can share the same power supply.
Best regards,
Jaka Racman
maybe this will help you decide. UcD modules are also available localy. Here is the link . I have found the link after I bought my UcD400 modules, so I do not know quality of the supplier. But maybe you can start with one module, and if you like it buy another one. This way you can avoid double transportation expenses. Maybe you can even get unit on loan.
Technically, UcD180 is mono module, but two modules can share the same power supply.
Best regards,
Jaka Racman
Hi,
In search of the oasis I see
Cool.
You could likely make use of some sort of attenuator for the tweeter like a good quality pot, but to be honest, I'm not sure you'd get the full experience of the dynamics. I doubt it will be a problem with noise as well if that's what your conern there was.
Musical/emotion.... in even your basic class d you can expect a wide dynamic range, superb detail and clarity, a very open with all kinds of air, effortless, and I find enjoyable sound.
With the UCD you can expect a new level of transparancy, very natural/real sound, the kind of thing that takes very little effort to transport you there. So whatever emotion you'd expect to have from being there when it was recorded depending on what you like listening to.
400E is a slim yet possibly reasonable budjet. You could get your power supply direct from Hypex and not have to fool around, probably a great hassle free way to get you in under or at least very near to your goal.
It seems you're worried about it being too loud. I don't think you'll find the caliber of this clean power to be very "loud" and I'd bet you'll be turning it up more than ever before.
You shouldn't be put off either by all the tweaking posts you've seen for the module... it's not at all necessary.
Regards,
Chris
In search of the oasis I see
Cool.You could likely make use of some sort of attenuator for the tweeter like a good quality pot, but to be honest, I'm not sure you'd get the full experience of the dynamics. I doubt it will be a problem with noise as well if that's what your conern there was.
Musical/emotion.... in even your basic class d you can expect a wide dynamic range, superb detail and clarity, a very open with all kinds of air, effortless, and I find enjoyable sound.
With the UCD you can expect a new level of transparancy, very natural/real sound, the kind of thing that takes very little effort to transport you there. So whatever emotion you'd expect to have from being there when it was recorded depending on what you like listening to.
400E is a slim yet possibly reasonable budjet. You could get your power supply direct from Hypex and not have to fool around, probably a great hassle free way to get you in under or at least very near to your goal.
It seems you're worried about it being too loud. I don't think you'll find the caliber of this clean power to be very "loud" and I'd bet you'll be turning it up more than ever before.
You shouldn't be put off either by all the tweaking posts you've seen for the module... it's not at all necessary.
Regards,
Chris
It seems that everyone here agrees that class D amps can be considered hifi. I don't disagree with this. What I want to know is at what level they compare? Are these class D on the level of denon, pioneer, and sony? Or are they on the level of Pass Labs, Cary, and Mark Levinson?
If class D can compete with products like the Pass Labs Aleph series and the XA160 then I think we are on the eve of a paradigm shift. Why spend $18k on the xa160 when you can have a better sound for around $1K. I just don't think that class D has acheived a level of SQ that compares to something like the xa160.....YET.
If class D can compete with products like the Pass Labs Aleph series and the XA160 then I think we are on the eve of a paradigm shift. Why spend $18k on the xa160 when you can have a better sound for around $1K. I just don't think that class D has acheived a level of SQ that compares to something like the xa160.....YET.
paradigm shift? You bet!
Comparing the UcD in it's dressed out configuration with to all the other amps cited is totally unfair! That is unfair to them, if I was selling a multi thousand dollar amp I sure wouldn’t want it compared to the UcD. I don’t know if you have read any of the class D reviews but they are as a class soundly kicking some sacred cows! My own A/B design had no trouble stepping on some of these, can’t say all as I never heard them all. Then along comes the UcD and takes me to whole other level of involvement, enjoyment and just plain more information. Paradigm shift? You bet! A true epiphany!
Roger
Comparing the UcD in it's dressed out configuration with to all the other amps cited is totally unfair! That is unfair to them, if I was selling a multi thousand dollar amp I sure wouldn’t want it compared to the UcD. I don’t know if you have read any of the class D reviews but they are as a class soundly kicking some sacred cows! My own A/B design had no trouble stepping on some of these, can’t say all as I never heard them all. Then along comes the UcD and takes me to whole other level of involvement, enjoyment and just plain more information. Paradigm shift? You bet! A true epiphany!
Roger
In regards to what T11 posted, I would not recommend an amp such as the AMP1-B for such high efficiency speakers.
I have finished two AMP1-B boards and they sound amazing, but the noise floor would be unacceptable in your case. I originally bought the boards to bi-amp a pair of yet to be built line arrays, but I'm not so sure that will be such a good idea now. Its a pitty too, as I already have all the drivers for the arrays. They would be 107db/w when completed and I think the hiss from the AMP1-B would be unbearable.
I would like to know the cause of the hiss, is it a flaw in the circuit or the Tripath IC itself?
I have finished two AMP1-B boards and they sound amazing, but the noise floor would be unacceptable in your case. I originally bought the boards to bi-amp a pair of yet to be built line arrays, but I'm not so sure that will be such a good idea now. Its a pitty too, as I already have all the drivers for the arrays. They would be 107db/w when completed and I think the hiss from the AMP1-B would be unbearable.
I would like to know the cause of the hiss, is it a flaw in the circuit or the Tripath IC itself?
Very very kind of you all.
It is actally a breaking point for me right now. I was seriously thinking to go and build me an A class amp but in the same time something had me pushing toward enjoy of musical pleasure and giving myself totally to art leaving the growth for DIY behind. Things will get more nad more sofisticated in the future and I decided to leave this part to people that are better equiped and prepared for it. But will always enjoy their fruits of work and stand behind their developments. Yours actually. The forums as you see are the backup brains for all new born developers.
thank you all again
p.s.
the problem with the switch on for the tripath IC has been issued on the forum somewhere. I know, I have been browsing all the pages for 4 days for about 4-6h per day and there is also a solution to these but cannot remember what kind of...(the tripath not my sore eyes...).
It is actally a breaking point for me right now. I was seriously thinking to go and build me an A class amp but in the same time something had me pushing toward enjoy of musical pleasure and giving myself totally to art leaving the growth for DIY behind. Things will get more nad more sofisticated in the future and I decided to leave this part to people that are better equiped and prepared for it. But will always enjoy their fruits of work and stand behind their developments. Yours actually. The forums as you see are the backup brains for all new born developers.
thank you all again
p.s.
the problem with the switch on for the tripath IC has been issued on the forum somewhere. I know, I have been browsing all the pages for 4 days for about 4-6h per day and there is also a solution to these but cannot remember what kind of...(the tripath not my sore eyes...).
Me too, I am completely off of active preamps. I wil try this week to see what causes my hiss to completely disappear. Have to see on the scope what happens. But time........ I wish I had more.
There is so much to do nowadays, still have to do my DDDAC1543.........well, later. Plastic money makes everything so easy to obtain.............arrg.
Re: paradigm shift? You bet!
Fully agree, Class-D is for real and not just somethig that sounds good for the money. It sounds good compared to anything. At least it easily blew away my Accuphase as I have said many/many times onmany of the threads out here. Try it and judge for yourself, it does not takea huge investment to try them.
Best regards
Gertjan
sx881663 said:
Fully agree, Class-D is for real and not just somethig that sounds good for the money. It sounds good compared to anything. At least it easily blew away my Accuphase as I have said many/many times onmany of the threads out here. Try it and judge for yourself, it does not takea huge investment to try them.
Best regards
Gertjan
Re: too much info
With that high efficiency you need a very low noise amp. UcD has the lowest noise level that I have heard. I have a Tripath based amp (Marantz) that has a far higher noise level, was already unasbale for my tweeters with 90-92dB efficiency, so let alone for your speakers. I had an older version ZAPpulse that was similar in noise as the Marantz Tripath. There are newer low noise version of the ZAPpulse but don't know how low noise they are and their input impedance maybe too low for some applications. In your case I think the safest bet is UcD180 and get all the other parts such as supplies etc also for hypex as then you have a complete system with DC protection, pop-free turn on and off etc.
Best regards
Gertjan
T11 said:
With that high efficiency you need a very low noise amp. UcD has the lowest noise level that I have heard. I have a Tripath based amp (Marantz) that has a far higher noise level, was already unasbale for my tweeters with 90-92dB efficiency, so let alone for your speakers. I had an older version ZAPpulse that was similar in noise as the Marantz Tripath. There are newer low noise version of the ZAPpulse but don't know how low noise they are and their input impedance maybe too low for some applications. In your case I think the safest bet is UcD180 and get all the other parts such as supplies etc also for hypex as then you have a complete system with DC protection, pop-free turn on and off etc.
Best regards
Gertjan
I compared a Panasonic with a Tripath amp on 4Ohm 96dB and 8Ohm 93dB. I didn`t hear noise floor with the Tripath amp on 4Ohm 96dB, but a clearly reduced dynamic Range. My conclusion is that the reflectory grip for ultra high sensitivity speakers is false for the Tripath amps. I didn`t find much info on the UCD amps on their homepage, but it seems that they have a constant rail voltage that is much higher than that of the Tripaths. However, everybody who listened to them is enthousiastic. How do they achieve this enormous dynamic range?
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