I believe it's the key point in any HRTF based system (more important than a head tracker). You can easily test for yourself: buy two in-ear mikes, record your speakers with your ears and someone else's ears and listen to both recordings A/B.
Floyd Toole agrees with me that this type of audition is the future, but some bugs need to be worked out. Harman, like Ford, only do subjective evaluations using binaural recordings and a recent AES paper (Genelec I believe) concluded tha,t properly done, these recordings will not yield a statistically significant difference from the same subjective results done as real listening.
Markus is a perfectionist, we all know that, nothing like this (a reasonable compromise) is ever going to work for him. Thank God he doesn't hear differences in cables, he'd never let go!!
I am thinking seriously about it markus. head tracker, is that what you were referring to earlier?? (smyth realiser) I did look it up when you mentioned it in another thread a while ago, but the details escape me now.
I do have a cheap two channel mixer, I assume that would be all that is needed. There are a few sites around that if I sweat over enough may sink in...
I hope some do listen to that clip, everyone I have played it to have experienced quite profound results, well we can't really get into their head and check, but still.
Can only assume that recording was done on a generic head, so enough gets thru that to a large extent differing HRTFs may not be a complete barrier.
I do have a cheap two channel mixer, I assume that would be all that is needed. There are a few sites around that if I sweat over enough may sink in...
I hope some do listen to that clip, everyone I have played it to have experienced quite profound results, well we can't really get into their head and check, but still.
Can only assume that recording was done on a generic head, so enough gets thru that to a large extent differing HRTFs may not be a complete barrier.
just checkin that was not a typo, you are saying the conclusion was )when properly done) 'indistinguishable'?
Wow, that is impressive, hmm might just get a tad more serious...there's some rand to be won!!
umm, kinda noticed that!!
still, he does own your speakers (does he not?) so I guess you can take that as a compliment!
Didn't state anything other than that. We have to start from somewhere otherwise there won't be any reproduction equipment at all. But there's a lot of room for improvement - no, NOT cables
The headtracker tells the system in which direction you're looking so the correct HRTF for that direction can be applied.
The virtual barbershop is not a binaural recording. See QSound Labs: Virtual Barber Shop (Long) -- Binaural Audio Demo
yeah, suspected as much! as I said, no matter how heated I didn't think (upon reflection) that you ever got too riled up
cept when we kick some bok butt later
I totally get where you are coming from, I mean it is easy to understand your position and then put myself there, and in that position I can well imagine your reaction..which of course is completely why I posted those pics
Man, very soon I gotta rile you (and panikos) up some more by taking a picture of the back of my cdp remote..it says 'cash converters..$58' hahahaha.
(better put that into a little bit of perspective..I go straight digital out into the deqx, so a crappy cdp has much less effect than it otherwise might have. oops, it's actually a crappy dvd player I got for nix. someone else paid 58 bucks for it, then gave it to me!!)
That pic I posted is a good litmus test of our prejudices tho...how on earth can you actually judge whether or not I have the rest of my system sorted?? ALL you are reacting to is the speaker cable I use. and your belief of the importance of cables has led you to question the other aspects.
In fact, from my position (you should know it well enough by now, fix the speakers and fix the room, then worry-if you wish-about tenth order effects like cables) I'd be very willing to bet that those aspects of my system are far more sorted than yours.
Because that IS what I pay attention to.
But I do understand your position.
Hey brooke, thanks for matching me and talking eh?? I apologize (not-necessary) if I put your nose out of joint, really did not mean to. honestly. and I get how you could easily be trigger happy. (audio forums AND audio is meant to be fun, so lets keep it that way yeah?)
now we are mates again, can I ask a few things?
I don't really get this. Testing puts you in the wrong frame of mind. Well I do get that, but what I don't get is surely any testing of cables should then put you in the wrong frame of mind? I tend to wanna live with a cable in non-eval mode (normal listening) for awhile (week or month) so I have time to disearn what the differences are, I dont go looking for them however, they present themselves over time.
(I presume) you meant DBTesting puts you in the wrong frame of mind, but if you are comparing cables are you not in fact testing cables?? In retrospect yes I did compare cables, but was I preforming a comparison? No, I simply lived with each one and decided if I liked each one or not. Moving away from non-sheilded with silver or silver plate to shielded copper was dramatic but in a good way. I have been happy with my rig ever since.
WHY does the mere fact of you not knowing the identity make such a difference? That is the part I don't get. I never said I needed to know the idenity of the cable, just that I needed to "Live With" the cable before making a judgement. Its kinda hard to not know the idenity if I am the only one working on my system. Its just practicality.
Exacatactly. Except (with cables..or tubes..or any component) simply don't know what it is! Every other part of your audition protocol stays exacatactly the same. I believe in conspiracies (I do live in the US) but when I had my wife do some tube swapping for me it just created confusion and never really gave me any useful knowledge. Knowledge I gained through relaxed long term listening. I then stopped trying to rush the results as I decided for me the best thing is to live with a piece of gear before any critiquing or descisions.
Can I ask a simple yes no question? If as you claim cable brand excelsior sounds better than excalibur, that difference is an objective demonstrable fact yes? I don't really believe excelsior would sound better for everyone, but merely for myself and with my equipment. Personal preference and matching equipment for the desired results are were I think we all need to be. Your amp may sound fantastic using an RCA Cleartop 12AU7 but it may sound like doggie doo doo in my amp. You and I could even agree on this, but does that make the RCA Cleartop better? Nah, just different. Synergy dude.
Then logically following on from that, you should be able to pick the difference between the two based on their sonic properties alone, do you agree? (or not?) I can and have at a headphone meet.
Then why is it needed for you to know which it is you are listening to to enable you to determine which is better. Practicality and a belief that DBTing is like nipples on a male hog. A DBT will only give you results for said cables and test subject, its not free license to make all encompassing statements about cables. I also think the info gathered in a DBT is jumbled and useless for someone who is mostly interested in living with a piece of gear.
that is what I don't get (also).
Now I will beam to you a bit of social happiness, and you should get some transference from that...here it comes... Broast!!!
oooooommmm <<~~Not in public man, how many times do I have to tell you,,!!!
(((Oh, BTW, I had a great gag to post if you had still been angry at me. (not nasty or anything, but quite funny I think)
IF you still feel like responding and answering my questions, it would be fun if at the end you said something like 'Oh I get so angry sometimes at you non-believers'...that way I can out my gag in.
You'll have to trust our new found friendship that it is not nasty or a put down. just dying to use it haha))) Sounds good to me.
Oh it does - bought your speakers
But why not aim a little higher? Sounds like progress to me.
"Indistinguishable" is not what I said - you need to reread it. They concluded that using "virtual" evaluations would not yield a statistically significant difference in decision making relative to the real evaluations. Thats not at all the same thing. But you misunderstanding is exactly the kind of thing that would make posting recordings like this dangerous. They areb "relatively" much better than they "absolutely".
Markus is one of the most knowledgable people here. But not being "in" the business he has nothing to risk by being a "perfectionist" - I do. He is always suggesting that I do things that are contrary to my business sense. He is rightfulyy disappointed at the palty amount of interest that true sound quality gets.
Oh it does - bought your speakers
Because no one really cares. Its an academic exercise that I don;t have the time for.
Much more fun!
What fun is it arguing with an fool!? ..... I know - then why am I here?
If the patients are kept from hearing about possible side effects, then you have violated informed consent, and as a result the study.
Of course I agree completely. It's the point I keep trying to hammer home when writing 'the ear is not a microphone'.
Edit: wow, nice paper. thx.
Last edited:
Being aware of unconscious attributes doesn't allow one to overcome it through sheer will power. Are you able to see through optical illusions or not contract your muscles when you get startled? You are making a claim that it doesn't "pan out over the long run" but you're just declaring it, offering nothing to support the claim. If you think that evolution or psychology doesn't play a role in the decision making process you really should just stop right now and find a book or two on the subject before you go any further. A decision is a decision, it doesn't matter what the choice is about, the construct of the human mind is central to this process. It is an undisputed fact that humans are prone to product bias. If you take 2 products that are identical in nature but charge more for 1, put it in a nicer package or positively associate it in any way I guarantee you'll find a group of people who even when presented with evidence to the contrary will fight to the death to insist that product works better, tastes better, sounds better, whatever the case might be. When the only practical differences are subjective you'd be an idiot to think that product bias won't play an influential role.
Watch:
YouTube - Eric Mead: The magic of the placebo
If a sugar pill can make people think they are getting better, a pill dyed with a stamp will have a greater return in false positive results, a capsule will be more effective than that and a needle provided the greatest results. What changed? Just a slight change in the perception, something as simple as the number of doses or the method of delivery dramatically changed the false positive results in double blind tests. With that in mind how do you prove that what you hear isn't the result of product bias? If you're listening to the sugar pill how do you prove it's not all in your head? In a situation where the only differences are inconsequential to the results any positive associations will be reflected in the bias. You can't understand why people would associate any attribute with better sound? Why would someone associate a needle with better health? Just because you don't understand it doesn't mean it doesn't happen.
Before replying you should consider your response. You are comparing apples and oranges when you draw that parallel, comparing tangible differences vs. perceived differences. If you had to pick a car from several options using only the sound of the engine, if each engine was different of course you'll pick the one that sounds the best even if it's the worst looking. However if they're all identical engines you'll likely think the one that looks the nicest has the best roar even if they sound exactly the same. If it wasn't the looks then it would be some other association like which brand you've seen the most convincing commercials for.
So this would explain your interest in four-channel reproduction:
Pinup of the Month #2 on TVK
Seriously though, marketing research that looks for what would appeal to the largest demographic may work for increased sales of pick-up trucks and the like, not all audiophiles base their purchases on looks alone, the opinions about them some members of this forum hold notwithstanding. Now, if the cables in question came with a naked, nubile girl who sat on my lap while I was listening, then yes.
John
You don't seem to understand, it's not a matter of thinking to yourself, "oh, that one looks better, it must sound better". Stop trying to play it off like anyone is suggesting that is the case.So this would explain your interest in four-channel reproduction:
Pinup of the Month #2 on TVK
Seriously though, marketing research that looks for what would appeal to the largest demographic may work for increased sales of pick-up trucks and the like, not all audiophiles base their purchases on looks alone, the opinions about them some members of this forum hold notwithstanding. Now, if the cables in question came with a naked, nubile girl who sat on my lap while I was listening, then yes.
John
No one argues appearance can't be a factor. If you're not maintaining its effect is permanent and imperative, I really don't see the point.
Last edited:
No, but one sense is capable of overcoming another. How long would your interest in a cute girl hold if she stunk like hell? Or if over the long run you realized she was a bit more of a dim bulb than you originally felt?
You made that cheap shot available by changing what I called "the major role" to just "a role". Nice try.
You accuse me of comparing apples to oranges? The appearance of the speaker and the way it sounds are both perceived and subjective. I am only interested in a speaker that sounds good to me. One that appeals to me visually would be a bonus. I'm certainly not stupid enough to buy a speaker that has the best measurements.
John
- Status
- Not open for further replies.