If that already drives you crazy, then you obviously couldn´t understand what Leventhal was writing about.
Unfortunately, as that is basic statistics and reasoning based on this basic stuff, you will not grasp it until you recollect it.
What again is a claim without any factual reason.
But i admit that it might be difficult to follow the reasoning if you don´t understand the statistical foundation.
Wishes
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I thought the whole idea was to prove how audible cables are, if you have good hearing and a good setup. Don't they mostly "have a high detection ability"?
Supposing all these lame excuses to fail, have any bearing on reality (which is why we're testing), do they effect everyone?
Where is the one guy who can hear the cables all of the time? The one guy who's not nervous and can't read the testers mind? Wouldn't one guy be all it would take?
Why would it even be necessary to test "non-believers" or "statistically relevant" numbers of people? All it takes is one guy who can demonstrate consistently, which wire is different. Then you would be proven correct. You'd win.
Wheres that guy?
I thought the whole idea was to prove how audible cables are, if you have good hearing and a good setup. Don't they mostly "have a high detection ability"?
Supposing all these lame excuses to fail, have any bearing on reality (which is why we're testing), do they effect everyone?
Where is the one guy who can hear the cables all of the time? The one guy who's not nervous and can't read the testers mind? Wouldn't one guy be all it would take?
Why would it even be necessary to test "non-believers" or "statistically relevant" numbers of people? All it takes is one guy who can demonstrate consistently, which wire is different. Then you would be proven correct. You'd win.
Wheres that guy?
Yes, all it takes is one person.
So now all we have to do is figure out who is... The One.
se
Indeed. Where is he? we seek him high, we seek him low, just cannot be found you know!
Where is thisoneguy??
YouTube - That 1 Guy - The Moon is Disgusting (live)
It's a real pity he doesn't write better lyrics, cause some of the sounds he can get is frankly amazing...especially for a one man band.
The opening track on his album has one of the most amazing soundstages you will ever hear! Completely enveloping and immersive. (remind me to throw it on for you next time brett, really worth hearing)
howzabout we just all agree to wait till we get the test results. no more of this prepatory work to get the excuses in early. Hey, for all we know this time you may not need them?
Jakob, quivk question, let's say TG passes the test, and did so under SYs administration...would you still demand a retest (as SY is doing it wrong it seems..tho I will be honest and say for the life of me I can no longer remember what it is doing that is wrong-hanging my head as I ask-could you very briefly remind me what he is doing wrong? sorry, this thread tends to bury points sometimes)
Would you demand he do it again regardless of the outcome?
What I'm doing wrong is not simultaneously testing for sensitivity to unrelated and uncorrelated phenomena (e.g., frequency response). I am not giving TG more trials so that he can get fatigued (this was a huge conceptual error by Leventhal, looking at statistics but not psychology). And by my mere presence, I am scaring TG into deafness.
I think that summarizes his points quite neatly.
Thanks SY.
I remember all those things popping up from time to time, trouble is that they come from all directions. We have noted that many times before, wish they'd all sing the same song at the same time!
Is your first point the same as 'establishing the sensitivity of the test'? Ie, supposed to find out just WHAT the guy can hear...(frankly I don't give a ****, he reckons he can easily and clearly hear cables, so WTF let's just test that. Is jakob and others willing to chip in for your accommodation and time off work etc so you can carry out the tests they want you to do??).
That leaves us with the sylvia browns syndrome and listener fatigue...sigh. Tho are not good cables supposed to lessen fatigue? Surely a dead giveaway in a test and helpful to the claimant??
You left off (I think) that you are also supposed to prove you don't hear things are you not? Have we worked out the protocol for that exactly yet?? I will admit I have no idea how to prove you don't hear things, so I will leave that to the other experts who are directing you towards a properly conducted test eh??
So why is it that *we* are supposed to find what *they* can or cannot hear in areas other than cables, and that *we* are supposed to prove that we cannot hear what we cannot hear??
Does the madness ever end?
My view exactly. Restating the hypothesis and then complaining that the test doesn't answer the restatement is not, IMO, very useful.
I'm paying my own way on this one.
If TG doesn't show a significant result, I assure you that the madness will continue. If he does, that would be ultra-cool- something new and interesting to look at.
I'm paying my own way on this one.
well, in that case just test WHAT you want (and let's assume TG wants that too, which I think he does) and simply make sure that test is done well.
Small words I know, but I am confident you will do it well.
If anyone else had said that I'd probably challenge it. It may be only me I'm talking about here (doubt it tho...if people are honest with themselves) but these discussions DO become 'stuck in a game' and objectivity and total intellectual honesty goes out the window.
It's funny you happened to say that line, as only a few minutes ago I thought of this point. There is a constant insistence that 'science does not know everything' from the die hard believers.
And that is ONLY used to make excuses for test failures etc (let's leave out the really obviously flawed tests, they are NOT worth considering). But that is the whole point of scientific testing!!
If you are being scientific, then you have to let go of your cherished ideals, wants and wishes. You have to deliberately set out to test your thoughts, ideals, wants and wishes. Try and try to find the error of them.
But those using the 'loophole' that science does not know everything, (therefore it is 'scientific' to entertain other possibilities) are not and never have been interested in the truth. It is only used to deny any result they do not like.
That is fine! Believe what you want, buy what you want, but DON'T use 'science' (or the scientific method) to back up your claim then refuse to apply that method personally!!! ('I don't need to prove to others' etc etc. Yeah? Then Why the F* are you posting here if you don't feel the need to prove to it others???!!)
So SY, are you honestly and truly interested if TG passes your test? (that is the true scientific spirit). What would you DO with that result, how would it form the basis of further research for you (are you even that interested??) or would you just simply make an announcement to the 'world' that in some cases cables are audible as has been long claimed.
Have I ever mentioned that what interests me is the human reaction side of it all?
That's why I'd love to hear what SYs reaction might be...and why I have asked jakob for example is he'd suddenly accept SYs test administration IF TG passes.(Me I don't care really, not my argument at all, but even so there will be at some level a sense of disbelief, denial and the start of the search for the 'reasons why' this """""wrong""""" result happened. Just the nature of the human animal if we are honest with ourselves)
Hmm, where is TG??? Seems a sudden lack of interest by the guy at the centre of interest...is he that one guy we have been searching for??
How would he handle the fame and notariety if he indeed passed? Is he ready for the adulation to follow?? It's not easy I imagine to be elected the saviour for an entire group of people......
Right. When you have run out of excuses, hand waving and semantics are all that are left. You know fully well the switchbox excuse, hence the manual cable swap requirement. How do you propose to manually connect/disconnect cables blind? With a hand wave?
You started out trying to sound all scientific...and have since unraveled into the ol' subjectivist fallacy of wanting things to be true by belief, wanting negatives to be proven, etc, etc.
I know they have poker in Germany. So you knew at some point, the bluff would be called and you would have to show your hand.
Empty all along
.Yep. Claims of hearing wires, or caps, etc. Claims of having done blind tests, etc, etc.
The cards are been called to the table. It's time you fold.
Strange.
I suppose it has more to do with how fully we all listen to our respective systems as to whether or not changes in a system make any difference or not.
I would expect that there are people out there who can't tell the difference in whether or not the cables are installed backward or if the cabling plan can be improved by moving them in relation to the big EM things, such as power transformers.
You guys are kind of lucky, TBH.
I suppose it has more to do with how fully we all listen to our respective systems as to whether or not changes in a system make any difference or not.
I would expect that there are people out there who can't tell the difference in whether or not the cables are installed backward or if the cabling plan can be improved by moving them in relation to the big EM things, such as power transformers.
You guys are kind of lucky, TBH.
He seems to have retreated down the rabbit hole into the "asylum" of audio. The cocoon from reality where inmates treat each other, to answers they would rather hear. A rather ominous sign.
I guess we'll just have to keep our fingers crossed.
cheers,
AJ
Agreed. Some of us listen to sound waves fully, with our ears, while others listen fully, with their eyes and knowledge, to sound waves, silver waves, price waves, purity waves...and lord knows what else
. Strange??
So "backwards" is of similar effect as EM? EM which can be measured and audibly (or not) correlated to sound waves? So what is the measure of "backwardness" and how is this audibly correlated to sound waves?
Technical and psychological literacy (and acceptance) are not luck.
cheers,
AJ
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Or maybe TG is just an exceptional outlier.
Even if he is the only one on the planet, it would still prove that cables can be audible.
I seriously doubt he can, but as I said earlier, all it would take is one person.
I also think, more "non-believers" could accept the results, if he passes, than "believers" would if he fails. Because, on average, the "believers" have less invested (personally and financially) in "cable sound".
Eric
lost him I think. bugger.
Hmm, would not his question have carried far more weight if he had passed the test????
But no. 'Just accept I can hear differences. Now go and investigate why. I (we) demand it'.
Arrogant audiophiles.
Maybe time for another 'end point' to be announced for the thread, and this time kept.
This last continuation only had the carrot at the end of a properly done test, looks like Tg has piked (anyone else here not completely and utterly surprised and flabbergasted???).
Turns out he was the usual cable believer after all, despite all his honourable and lofty protestations.
Time to put the thread to death I think, it is against the laws of nature to keep such a hideous beast alive.
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