It has been my experience that cables make a difference. Therefore, I must be a deluded audio nut. However, we were swapping cables at RMAF long into the night, to get things right. We did OK, but no audio nirvana, even with the $5,000 cables that we settled with. Good cables can't do everything.
This sort of ABX demand will kill virtually any comparisons between audio equipment. Perhaps, there is something wrong with the test? I told Dr. Lipshitz this in print about 30 years ago. Nothing has changed, the 'professors' all think that we are 'nuts' and we consider them 'deaf'. So it goes.
This sort of ABX demand will kill virtually any comparisons between audio equipment. Perhaps, there is something wrong with the test? I told Dr. Lipshitz this in print about 30 years ago. Nothing has changed, the 'professors' all think that we are 'nuts' and we consider them 'deaf'. So it goes.
Except that to be correct does not require a burden of proof. Many principles are applied without a full understanding. "Home remedies" are frequently found to be valid based upon fuller understanding, things like the antibacterial properties of honey and lemon.... how long before bacteria were even known was tea with honey and lemon used for illness and sore throats? Much knowledge like this exists and can be productive prior to the scientific community catching up.
Things don't need to be proven scientifically to be true. It's nice when they are, but it's not necessary to have a scientific foundation to know that something works. While people fool themselves, one doesn't need to know about friction for the tires on their car to work.
I for one think cables can make significant audible differences, but test methodology is extremely problematic since blind testing has high variability in things as different as speakers, much less cables. It takes time and familiarity to get used to a system and know it well enough so that a relatively subtle change is recognizable.
Joseph Audio did a demo where they told a room full of audiophiles that they were going to demo one speaker, when in reality, they were playing some others, in-walls I believe. Most of the crowd didn't pick up on it.
Perception is notoriously unreliable, but so is its correlation to data.
This is correct. Indeed, Professor Lipschitz has not changed his mind in the last thirty years. He is though ready and eager to do so as soon as you or any other audio 'nuts' is going to provide a shred of evidence of your extraordinary claims.
Nonetheless, if you want to enter the audio scientific body of knowledge based on unsupported claims only, I can guarantee this will always fail miserably. But I suspect you already know that.
All comments that cables make big diferences were made in this thread either by skeptics in an ironic way or by some reviewers and "audiophiles" who may claim that differences are huge.I have not seen a post in this thread made by "believers" that speaks anything else than worthwhile differences,some of which also considered to be improvements in their systems.I hate to give advice
,some will also say that I'm not in a position to do so, and I'm not even sure if I am among those whom you trust,or you believe their system sounds great.Things with cables are simple.Put them in your system,and give some time to them and yourself to "communicate".If you both agree,then you may live happily ever after.If not,being a skeptic is not a crime "I for one think cables can make significant audible differences, but test methodology is extremely problematic since blind testing has high variability in things as different as speakers, much less cables. It takes time and familiarity to get used to a system and know it well enough so that a relatively subtle change is recognizable."
My underlining.
One sees this contradiction so often, even in the same paragraph as above!
Is the contradiction not obvious??
The first is a frequently made claim. Jaw-dropping, etc.
The second is the get-out so that the first cannot be tested or disputed.
My underlining.
One sees this contradiction so often, even in the same paragraph as above!
Is the contradiction not obvious??
The first is a frequently made claim. Jaw-dropping, etc.
The second is the get-out so that the first cannot be tested or disputed.
True, that's one I only answered about 100 times. To you. Short memory, better watch out for aluminum in your cookware.
The "argument" is not that they MAY sound different, but the lack of any evidence that they do once trivial variables are accounted for.
I agree and I have no problem if somebody is enjoying a certain cable, Shakti stones, honey, lemon, vodoo dolls, or whatever else.
My problem starts when they are looking for a scientific endorsement for their beliefs. This process starts always by generalizing their findings, claiming not that they enjoy a particular cable, but that that cable is "better" then the next. This is where it gets ugly, and you can find lots of audio sales men and high end audio designers in this crowd.
Set aside the (non negligible) genuine crooks subset, there is a simple explanation to this reality: high end audio design and sales is today all about making a difference. And if such differences can't be objectively defined, then they must exist in the subjective space. It's a condition for surviving.
This is an old process that started, most likely, in the late 60's and early seventies. Meantime, an equilibrium point was reached, where high end designers, audio sales men, high end audio magazines and the customers are living in a symbiotic relationship. In this particular case, I really hope Lynn Margulis was right
Anyway, the customers get more and more educated (the Interned has his distinct place in this process), and less prone to buy unconditionally into the subjective crap. That's why the high end audio industry is shrinking and not because of any economic crisis.Sometimes it take time to recognise the difference a certain cable make, but once recognised the difference may seem to be "significant".
Regarding "significant", if you are searching for detail, small differences may be described as significant. If I can suddenly hear a background instrument playing in its own space, not from all over the show, it is a significant change to me.
I await your scientific evidence in support of this process perfesser, until such point the theory is voodoo. Isn't logical consistency a pain?
Are you saying the forefront of circuit design and implementation is held by Sony, Technics, Toshiba, and other grinders of consumer commodity product? Hope so, because I have a four foot high pile of that stink in the parking garage awaiting 1-800-got-junk, stink I'ld be more than happy to let you have at a special bargain price. Premium quality, one of a kind, cranked only for church broadcasts on Sunday.
I didn't say jaw-dropping, did I. And would you agree that a speaker change COULD be jaw-dropping? And many people have problems recognizing different speakers under blind conditions such as are usually used by skeptics.
If a speaker change doesn't pass the threshhold of testing audibility, there's obviously a huge flaw in normal blind hifi testing for actual human usage, and that applies to cables as well as speakers.
Test conditions matter. My daughter, who's well above the curve (perfect scores on every test in her short (1st grade) school career just came home with an atrocious test result. It was timed. That singular factor took her from perfect to failing. She needs to learn to ignore the clock and just do her work as if it weren't timed. This same issue applies to blind testing, it distracts people from the test subject. It's not a natural state for humans.
Then do it right. I've given you a procedure, too. Sorry, I can't fly down to SA and do it for you.
Hi,
Still suffering from the Jadis complex I see.
Too bad as this incompetent design just blew my socks off untill the KT88s started to glow cherry red...
Science, theory, room acoustics aside, this particular audio experience will for always remain engraved in my memory as uncanny real.
Nothing, and I really mean nothing, as ever surpassed that shortlived experience of having Edith Piaf in the room, nothing.
If any sales person thinks he can bring back the experience, I might bite.
P.S. Anlogue system set up by Mr. Analogue himself: Pierre Lurne. Man I wish I knew what you know about cartridge setup.
Point being, don't just dismiss what seems flawed in the mere measurement department.
If it meaures right it won't per definition sound right or will it?
Cheers,
Still suffering from the Jadis complex I see.
Too bad as this incompetent design just blew my socks off untill the KT88s started to glow cherry red...
Science, theory, room acoustics aside, this particular audio experience will for always remain engraved in my memory as uncanny real.
Nothing, and I really mean nothing, as ever surpassed that shortlived experience of having Edith Piaf in the room, nothing.
If any sales person thinks he can bring back the experience, I might bite.
P.S. Anlogue system set up by Mr. Analogue himself: Pierre Lurne. Man I wish I knew what you know about cartridge setup.
Point being, don't just dismiss what seems flawed in the mere measurement department.
If it meaures right it won't per definition sound right or will it?
Cheers,
No. Their business model is today to lower the prices while keeping the performance ('good' or 'bad', they have their own customer segment) constant or only slightly better. The japs decided for this strategy as soon as they realized they have one of the arguments to 'make a difference' - cheap manufacturing. They gave up willingly the high end segment, that happened about 20 years ago.
JC is probably right, however I don't know where the 'middle class' ends and where the 'very high end audio' starts.
Sometimes it takes about 3 days, and sometimes it doesn't.
That little $5 effects box that I mentioned earlier takes about 3 days to set as described, which is why it has a potentiometer instead of a fixed voltage divider. Of course, one should eventually replace the potentiometer dial with a fixed divider made of resistors (and have a dpdt on,on to patch out / turn off the effect).
Other items like NFB caps and input caps can be done quickly if given 5 reasonable selections for a quick contest of peers. Sometimes a bypass cap can take longer, but if it takes more than an hour, the source of the problem is located other than what you're working on; for example: probably, the power circuit is the location of the sonic problem, not the input cap.
So, if it takes a long while to complete the task, then its probable that you're not working on the actual cause of the problem.
P.S.
CD Storage? How do you store yours? I've tried the CD racks, but when I played a good CD all of the rest blew out of that rack pretty quickly.
The JA-80. What a sound! It may have been flawed in design, but the sound was incredible, bar noneHi,
Still suffering from the Jadis complex I see.
Too bad as this incompetent design just blew my socks off untill the KT88s started to glow cherry red...
Science, theory, room acoustics aside, this particular audio experience will for always remain engraved in my memory as uncanny real.
Nothing, and I really mean nothing, as ever surpassed that shortlived experience of having Edith Piaf in the room, nothing.
If any sales person thinks he can bring back the experience, I might bite.
P.S. Anlogue system set up by Mr. Analogue himself: Pierre Lurne. Man I wish I knew what you know about cartridge setup.
Point being, don't just dismiss what seems flawed in the mere measurement department.
If it meaures right it won't per definition sound right or will it?
Cheers,
I concur absolutely on this one!- Status
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