hey, maybe he/batam just 'thinks' its the punch he is missing but could be he doesnt really know whats missing
I bet if I could give him the bass I know 'should' be there, but 'never is', then he would forget all about 'punchy bass'
and btw, bass is a lot about phase....and timing without....it just gets punchy, a very boring one note thing...and just kills all the spirit in any music, generally
actually, it should be forbidden by law
I bet if I could give him the bass I know 'should' be there, but 'never is', then he would forget all about 'punchy bass'
and btw, bass is a lot about phase....and timing without....it just gets punchy, a very boring one note thing...and just kills all the spirit in any music, generally
actually, it should be forbidden by law
i don`t agree.at clubs with 15inch speakers and 18-to 21 inch subs they still have punch.i believe it` because they have great accelaration factor.
bl/mms which means strong motors with light cones so they move fast.
besides if you electronically cut off the lower bass you have the same effect.
p.s.oops i quoted my self intead of charles.
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Sorry I don't have time to read the entire thread just now..but wanted to throw in some comments.
Start with a powerful full-range system, lots of drivers with lots of headroom, and dynamic material. If that doesn't do it add a dynamic range expander and a subharmonic synthesizer.
There's plenty of DBX expansion units, and other consumer and pro expanders, as well as peak unlimiters. I'm not talking about downward expanders or noise gates. The specific job of expanders is to make everything punchy! They really work your upper bass drivers and require a lot of reserve headroom capability...any 'reserve' gets used up quickly. You may want a slight constant expansion ratio, with a more drastic expansion over some threshold to emphasize the peaks of attacks. It's the opposite of the compressed beat of some house music which is almost designed to "show off" mediocre bass speakers with an incessant drone. Didn't you ever twiddle the volume knob or mixer slider with the beat? Expanders do that better. Drum slam is incredible. That's what commercial dance sound pros use for punchy bass without requiring as much real low extension. It also makes for a reasonable environment without so much ear damage. Keep thinking "dynamic range impact" instead of "constant compressed droning loudness". It's actually the correct tool, might as well call it "punch"...
Then if you want more deep (if slightly fake) bass that isn't obnoxiously unmusical, with a different deep-chest impact, consider a subharmonic synthesizer. That will really exercise some tapped horns or deep subs. I had an Audio Control Phase Coupled Activator. My new DBX sub synth is much more modern, with far better performance and balanced ins & outs. Judicious application is important if you want it to be tasteful.
Level-matching becomes really critical to get just right with these devices, and changes completely with the slightest adjustment, and the settings do require constant tweeking to fit the mood, material, venue, audience, hour, event, etc. without damaging yhour equipment. They can hurt your speakers if your'e an idiot with them. Both categories of devices can make use of all the amp & speaker equipment you can attach, even in surprisingly small spaces. I have over 16,000 watts (triamp xover, down from over 30,000) in my small living room at the moment, and with expansion and sub synth the peaks need every watt while the average is probably just a few watts. My speakers are admittedly inefficient.
BTW "fast" bass is an ignorant oxymoron useful to describe the use of high-impact upper bass to imply the non-existent lower fundamentals. It has its uses. For a while I had a system with 256 4" drivers, and it didn't have much low bass below about 40 hz, but the slam was strong. But real bass is inherently slow by definition. A lot of systems do get away with a shortage of real low bass with an abundance of higher bass, and achieve more slam for your dollar. A good system should be capable of both, with the real bass being much much more difficult to achieve. I still need some Danleys. Abundant genuine low bass is a different thing, equally or more important.
Start with a powerful full-range system, lots of drivers with lots of headroom, and dynamic material. If that doesn't do it add a dynamic range expander and a subharmonic synthesizer.
There's plenty of DBX expansion units, and other consumer and pro expanders, as well as peak unlimiters. I'm not talking about downward expanders or noise gates. The specific job of expanders is to make everything punchy! They really work your upper bass drivers and require a lot of reserve headroom capability...any 'reserve' gets used up quickly. You may want a slight constant expansion ratio, with a more drastic expansion over some threshold to emphasize the peaks of attacks. It's the opposite of the compressed beat of some house music which is almost designed to "show off" mediocre bass speakers with an incessant drone. Didn't you ever twiddle the volume knob or mixer slider with the beat? Expanders do that better. Drum slam is incredible. That's what commercial dance sound pros use for punchy bass without requiring as much real low extension. It also makes for a reasonable environment without so much ear damage. Keep thinking "dynamic range impact" instead of "constant compressed droning loudness". It's actually the correct tool, might as well call it "punch"...
Then if you want more deep (if slightly fake) bass that isn't obnoxiously unmusical, with a different deep-chest impact, consider a subharmonic synthesizer. That will really exercise some tapped horns or deep subs. I had an Audio Control Phase Coupled Activator. My new DBX sub synth is much more modern, with far better performance and balanced ins & outs. Judicious application is important if you want it to be tasteful.
Level-matching becomes really critical to get just right with these devices, and changes completely with the slightest adjustment, and the settings do require constant tweeking to fit the mood, material, venue, audience, hour, event, etc. without damaging yhour equipment. They can hurt your speakers if your'e an idiot with them. Both categories of devices can make use of all the amp & speaker equipment you can attach, even in surprisingly small spaces. I have over 16,000 watts (triamp xover, down from over 30,000) in my small living room at the moment, and with expansion and sub synth the peaks need every watt while the average is probably just a few watts. My speakers are admittedly inefficient.
BTW "fast" bass is an ignorant oxymoron useful to describe the use of high-impact upper bass to imply the non-existent lower fundamentals. It has its uses. For a while I had a system with 256 4" drivers, and it didn't have much low bass below about 40 hz, but the slam was strong. But real bass is inherently slow by definition. A lot of systems do get away with a shortage of real low bass with an abundance of higher bass, and achieve more slam for your dollar. A good system should be capable of both, with the real bass being much much more difficult to achieve. I still need some Danleys. Abundant genuine low bass is a different thing, equally or more important.
Punchy bass comes from
- a ~3-5db peak in the lower mids and upper bass (70hz - 250hz)
- full BSC
- high spectral distortion
- recordings with adequate dynamic range that the speakers don't sound shrill at high volumes
- your room being coupled to the bass to your body
of course, speakers with punchy bass will not sound very good on acoustic material, but that's how you get it.
- a ~3-5db peak in the lower mids and upper bass (70hz - 250hz)
- full BSC
- high spectral distortion
- recordings with adequate dynamic range that the speakers don't sound shrill at high volumes
- your room being coupled to the bass to your body
of course, speakers with punchy bass will not sound very good on acoustic material, but that's how you get it.
Just some ideas: my system (hardly DIY) is a Behringer NU3000 driving two pair of Bose 901 II. I use a DEQ2496 to EQ out nodes (via REW) and have equalized to taste ("hearing") 1/3 octave pink noise, subjectively flat. I am very pleased with the results. The lowest octaves have like 30 dB boost max, compared to 18 dB for the stock 901 II EQ. Even with program material at "reasonable" volumes (the mids), I get bass that yes, thumps the chest, as well as rattles walls, shelves, and other stuff in the room. I use most (sometimes all) of the NU3000's (alleged) 1500 watt/channel into 4 Ohms, on the peaks. Important point: yes, bass you can feel is a part of "real" music, even "acoustic" music, if you call being near a drum kit unamplified music. With amplified bass, you should have a rumble in your gut sometimes, even if the overall music is not deafening (think jazz.)
I don't know if anyone has mentioned this yet, but if you want really punchy, go Karlson. A 12" or 15" Karlson will give you all the slam you could want. Go read up about it. If you buid a pair they will rock you like few others. Keep on rockin'!
Deon
It's an interesting topic. Everyone loves bass. But it is a mystery to beginners. Even to some more experienced ones. That's why threads such as this exist.
Having built and listened many systems, I think I understand what everyone is trying to explain in this thread. Which explanation/information is more useful, that depends on the people who need the information.
If I consider myself as one of the non-beginners, I would vote for CLS explanation as one of the more useful info. If you hear the sound of a real drum, you must know that the sound consists of very wide frequency band. If you remove the high frequency content, the sound may not as pleasant. The problem is that your speaker crossover (and amp) must be able to produce this band with equal timing, which is a design issue, not accessible by beginners.
And I want to add to this thread, my "state of the art" understanding or observation about quality bass that has never been mentioned (in this thread) before...
The amplifiers. You need a "fast" amplifiers. One reason I lately only focus on current feedback amplifiers. I noticed that many amplifier "designers" make a mistake, which is "thinking in voltage" instead of in current. And I don't know 100% about the theory but I found current feedback amps (they are coincidentally fast or have high slew rate, very good phase, wide band) can give "that" bass quality that is absent from any other topology that I have tried.
Good luck with your search
Having built and listened many systems, I think I understand what everyone is trying to explain in this thread. Which explanation/information is more useful, that depends on the people who need the information.
If I consider myself as one of the non-beginners, I would vote for CLS explanation as one of the more useful info. If you hear the sound of a real drum, you must know that the sound consists of very wide frequency band. If you remove the high frequency content, the sound may not as pleasant. The problem is that your speaker crossover (and amp) must be able to produce this band with equal timing, which is a design issue, not accessible by beginners.
And I want to add to this thread, my "state of the art" understanding or observation about quality bass that has never been mentioned (in this thread) before...
The amplifiers. You need a "fast" amplifiers. One reason I lately only focus on current feedback amplifiers. I noticed that many amplifier "designers" make a mistake, which is "thinking in voltage" instead of in current. And I don't know 100% about the theory but I found current feedback amps (they are coincidentally fast or have high slew rate, very good phase, wide band) can give "that" bass quality that is absent from any other topology that I have tried.
Good luck with your search
I have no doubt that club systems with 15-21 inch drivers have 'punch' but I equally have no doubt that they incorporate an eq with which they boost 80-120Hz to get that 'punch'.
You can get a punchy sounding PA or speakers by either boosting that region above flat or by removing low bass. Both work.
Or, and this is equally possible, we are talking about different things when we say 'punch'.
I am surprised to see that my topic is drawing that much attention.
And I would like to thank you all for your contributions to this debate.
There are many ideas for that Punchy Bass.
One thing I discovered yesterday (I am beginner), is that when I inverted the SW phase I got good bass (not yet punchy enough) in many listening positions where I did not get bass at all before (especially in front of the speakers, right in the middle of the rectangle room).
My SW is placed between the floorstanding speakers, under a desk as large as the space between the speakers. The woofer is facing the listening position and the BR port is on the side.
I think the room is a big part of the result but I can't do much to change that.
Apart from that, I do agree that the bass sounds are not only one freq. but a whole frequency band and without highs and mids, the sound would not be pleasant.
Now should I cut extra low frequencies like 40Hz to let the woofer do a better job on higher frequencies ?
Should I add a power amplifier (I doubt about that point) ? Is there a real (proven) subject about High Current Amp and slew rate vs bass quality ?
And I would like to thank you all for your contributions to this debate.
There are many ideas for that Punchy Bass.
One thing I discovered yesterday (I am beginner), is that when I inverted the SW phase I got good bass (not yet punchy enough) in many listening positions where I did not get bass at all before (especially in front of the speakers, right in the middle of the rectangle room).
My SW is placed between the floorstanding speakers, under a desk as large as the space between the speakers. The woofer is facing the listening position and the BR port is on the side.
I think the room is a big part of the result but I can't do much to change that.
Apart from that, I do agree that the bass sounds are not only one freq. but a whole frequency band and without highs and mids, the sound would not be pleasant.
Now should I cut extra low frequencies like 40Hz to let the woofer do a better job on higher frequencies ?
Should I add a power amplifier (I doubt about that point) ? Is there a real (proven) subject about High Current Amp and slew rate vs bass quality ?
On my speaker, I tried to boost the 80Hz frequency region (GEQ) and I obtained more bass response, but not punchier at all ?
BTW, here is what GM had to say about Karlson cabs in the A Big'un - the Audio Nirvana Super 15 thread:
That last line 'I imagine an Altec/GPA 515-8g in a K15 could pound the breath out of you at rated power.' really got my attention.
Enjoy,
Deon
That last line 'I imagine an Altec/GPA 515-8g in a K15 could pound the breath out of you at rated power.' really got my attention.
Enjoy,
Deon
Hi batam,
What sound do you consider 'punchy' in real life?
I myself think bass drum is a pretty good example.
And then, sheer SPL aside, what quality of that sound is missing in your speaker?
Leading edge (the moment the drum is hit)?
The 'boom' following the initial attack?
Sense of vibration via the air?
What sound do you consider 'punchy' in real life?
I myself think bass drum is a pretty good example.
And then, sheer SPL aside, what quality of that sound is missing in your speaker?
Leading edge (the moment the drum is hit)?
The 'boom' following the initial attack?
Sense of vibration via the air?
You have witnessed that when there is phase difference between 2 drivers the effect is significant. The fact is that 2 drivers are rarely 100% in phase because of design complexity.
Now if you have a 2-way standalone woofer that you want to integrate to a standalone SW, imagine how worse everything can be. To get good performance from this situation is not designing but gambling. If possible at all.
My point is that there are too many things affecting the bass performance. Even, what is preferred by the majority is probably not something right.
I was just trying to say that when you have understood and taken care of everything already mentioned by others, you may want to look at this amplifier issue.
Bass does need very high current. Otherwise the sound will "overhang". And good bass is often a product of amplifier driving ability (damping factor, low output impedance, perfect power transfer). Like paralleled output stage can give good bass. But about slew rate and current feedback amplifier, like I said, I'm not 100% sure. It's a CFB amp with lots of good features.
A lot of it is in the recording, I think. From your examples, you like a "wet" kick. The style today is often much drier.
What do you think of this?
ZZ Top Sharp Dressed Man - YouTube
As others have mentioned, you need good timing through the 100Hz area, which means no crossovers. A woofer resonance right around there doesn't hurt, either.
One of the "punchiest" speakers ever was the JBL100. Big, very efficient, 12" woofer with a high xover to the mids. Not so great for organ music or cellos, but it got the kick drum right.
What do you think of this?
ZZ Top Sharp Dressed Man - YouTube
As others have mentioned, you need good timing through the 100Hz area, which means no crossovers. A woofer resonance right around there doesn't hurt, either.
One of the "punchiest" speakers ever was the JBL100. Big, very efficient, 12" woofer with a high xover to the mids. Not so great for organ music or cellos, but it got the kick drum right.
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