What ever you decide consider conical horns, they have the least coloration .
I been convinced with a simple test by somebody talking into the horns throat. The comparison was between an Altec 511 and an AH-700 conical horn.
Read more about conical horns: Acoustic Horn - Products
I been convinced with a simple test by somebody talking into the horns throat. The comparison was between an Altec 511 and an AH-700 conical horn.
Read more about conical horns: Acoustic Horn - Products
Conical would be far easier to make, a table saw and a router.
Any great ideas on how to design the expansion?
There must be a very easy way to make them?
These look amazing, by Oswald Mills;
Any great ideas on how to design the expansion?
There must be a very easy way to make them?
These look amazing, by Oswald Mills;
An externally hosted image should be here but it was not working when we last tested it.
An externally hosted image should be here but it was not working when we last tested it.
Hello,
The test you do when you speak at the throat of one horn is nearly useless to judge its acoustical quality.
The purpose of a horn is to provide an acoustical load to the loudspeaker.
When you speak at the throat of a horn, you cannot prevent air leakage and thus the vocal chords are not acoustically loaded by the horn.
Only the more or less controlled directivity of the horn can be judged with the test you have done.
Best regards from Paris, France
Jean-Michel Le Cléac'h
The test you do when you speak at the throat of one horn is nearly useless to judge its acoustical quality.
The purpose of a horn is to provide an acoustical load to the loudspeaker.
When you speak at the throat of a horn, you cannot prevent air leakage and thus the vocal chords are not acoustically loaded by the horn.
Only the more or less controlled directivity of the horn can be judged with the test you have done.
Best regards from Paris, France
Jean-Michel Le Cléac'h
for a mid range horn, how does one decide what compression ratio the driver can reliably drive.
Eg a 4inch cone on a 2inch throat is 4:1, but a 6inch cone on a 2inch throat is 9:1
Once the compression ratio has been decided, how does one make the phase plate that couples the cone to the throat? How does one decide how long the phase plate should be? How many and what shape should the passages be?
The horn part is seen, but to me is the simplest part. It's what happens in the first few inches back at the cone to throat that gets little attention.
Eg a 4inch cone on a 2inch throat is 4:1, but a 6inch cone on a 2inch throat is 9:1
Once the compression ratio has been decided, how does one make the phase plate that couples the cone to the throat? How does one decide how long the phase plate should be? How many and what shape should the passages be?
The horn part is seen, but to me is the simplest part. It's what happens in the first few inches back at the cone to throat that gets little attention.
My plan was to use either 1" or 2" compression drivers.
You can buy off the shelf adapters to fit the different options, but 2" throat would be a good start.
Im trying to find pdf plans to try and make a cardboard one, petal/leaf style would like to try the Le Cheac'h, tractrix, conical etc...
You can buy off the shelf adapters to fit the different options, but 2" throat would be a good start.
Im trying to find pdf plans to try and make a cardboard one, petal/leaf style would like to try the Le Cheac'h, tractrix, conical etc...
Hello,
The last version of my spreadshheet allows a petal /leaf structure of the horn. The rpofile of the petal as you can cut in a shhet of cardboard, metal or plywood is calulated.
Send me a valid email adress at
jean-michel.le_cleachXmines-paristech.fr
(replacing the X by the arobase) and I'll send you that spreadsheet.
Here is a cardboard model build by an audiophile here in France (thanks Haa)
Best regards from Paris France
Jean-Michel Le Cléac'h
The last version of my spreadshheet allows a petal /leaf structure of the horn. The rpofile of the petal as you can cut in a shhet of cardboard, metal or plywood is calulated.
Send me a valid email adress at
jean-michel.le_cleachXmines-paristech.fr
(replacing the X by the arobase) and I'll send you that spreadsheet.
Here is a cardboard model build by an audiophile here in France (thanks Haa)
Best regards from Paris France
Jean-Michel Le Cléac'h
Attachments
Hello Miklos,
Sound coloration in horns are mainly due to multiple reflection of waves when there is a rapid change of flare.
The mouth of truncated horns like the conical horn on a picture shown in a recent message is typically a source of large reflected energy.
The Le Cléac'h horn doesn't possess andy rapid change in flare and the area expansion law is the same all along the travel path of the waves. It can be considered as a quasi-infinite horn and doesn't have any "horn sound". It's impulse reponse is also excellent.
Best regards rom Paris, France
Jean-Michel Le Cléac'h
Sound coloration in horns are mainly due to multiple reflection of waves when there is a rapid change of flare.
The mouth of truncated horns like the conical horn on a picture shown in a recent message is typically a source of large reflected energy.
The Le Cléac'h horn doesn't possess andy rapid change in flare and the area expansion law is the same all along the travel path of the waves. It can be considered as a quasi-infinite horn and doesn't have any "horn sound". It's impulse reponse is also excellent.
Best regards rom Paris, France
Jean-Michel Le Cléac'h
It's the horn - assuming the driver will go lower. It won't.
Ur lucky you get that low, as the diaphragm is just about out of excursion due to the way it is made... imo.
_-_-bear
Horrid comparison.
The 511 is amongst the worst horns ever made.
Compare a tractrix to the conical. You will change your mind.
It is the "test" that Bruce Edgar used to use when ever he gave talks.
_-_-bear
Stu Au,
regarding your very nice looking rendering of proposed horn systems...
pay attention to the acoustic centers of all of the drivers, including the bass drivers WRT to the horns... that may change the layout somewhat...
Then also you need to decide if you need or want two horns or just one.
I am of the one horn is best point of view these days...
We can let Earl and JM argue about the relative merits of their respective designs... oh wait a sec! There are already several ongoing threads surround both of these designs, including someone who is more or less merging the two at least in simulation...
_-_-bear
regarding your very nice looking rendering of proposed horn systems...
pay attention to the acoustic centers of all of the drivers, including the bass drivers WRT to the horns... that may change the layout somewhat...
Then also you need to decide if you need or want two horns or just one.
I am of the one horn is best point of view these days...
We can let Earl and JM argue about the relative merits of their respective designs... oh wait a sec! There are already several ongoing threads surround both of these designs, including someone who is more or less merging the two at least in simulation...
_-_-bear
Hello Bear,
I can see that there is at least one person who follows those discussions
Best regards from Paris, France
Jean-Michel Le Cléac'h
I can see that there is at least one person who follows those discussions
Best regards from Paris, France
Jean-Michel Le Cléac'h
Last edited:
@Jean, i sent you an email, would love to try out the spreadsheet.
Thanks Bear, there is so much theory to learn, it boggles the mind. From the little I have read, LeCleac'h are sounding rather good.
The second horn was gonna be a waveguide (for cost efficiency the dayton 8" or 12" both under $15) I have been making plaster casts of the 8" to use as a solid plaster baffle, its coming along slowly ("Marc1 Proudst" is the thread).
Im still trying to work out the best/cost effective way of making horns over 30" these are my thoughts:
a) CNC out slices, router 45* glue and sand.
b) Slices and use a large lathe
c) Layer up foam, shape, seal and take fiberglass/paper mache positives.
d) Make a positive plaster mold of someone else's horn
e) Make mould and cast negative space, plaster, concrete
f) Build up basic shape, clay or foam, and cover with plaster, rotate and use mdf with the desired curve cut out, to form the shape
g) Get a potter to spin in for you
h) Buy one off the shelf
Thanks Bear, there is so much theory to learn, it boggles the mind. From the little I have read, LeCleac'h are sounding rather good.
The second horn was gonna be a waveguide (for cost efficiency the dayton 8" or 12" both under $15) I have been making plaster casts of the 8" to use as a solid plaster baffle, its coming along slowly ("Marc1 Proudst" is the thread).
Im still trying to work out the best/cost effective way of making horns over 30" these are my thoughts:
a) CNC out slices, router 45* glue and sand.
b) Slices and use a large lathe
c) Layer up foam, shape, seal and take fiberglass/paper mache positives.
d) Make a positive plaster mold of someone else's horn
e) Make mould and cast negative space, plaster, concrete
f) Build up basic shape, clay or foam, and cover with plaster, rotate and use mdf with the desired curve cut out, to form the shape
g) Get a potter to spin in for you
h) Buy one off the shelf
Hello Bear,
I can see that there is at least one person who follows those discussions
Best regards from Paris, France
Jean-Michel Le Cléac'h
It is well read by many... and there is actually a wealth of information to be had. Some of it is subtle and the astute reader can then either bang his/her head on the wall as a result or else have a sudden epiphany and be forever dissatisfied with their present system!
Of course, everyone has to draw their own conclusions...
And another point of some importance for anyone building any speaker - a great speaker in room A might only be a moderately good speaker in room B... the factors are multiple, but the biggest one by far is dimension, and there is no definitive way to predetermine what is what or what will positively work or even be good as far as that goes.
For example an audio friend was expressing interest in just such a sort of horn system as this thread discusses - but his room is rather small. Not a good match. He'd be far better off with an ESL of reasonable vertical dimension than a horn system. In my view, of course.
Just my opinions...
_-_-bear
I just opened up the new cast today and its 100 times better.
Studio Au, Audiophile or Gold, haven't yet decided.
Here my current build thread
http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/multi-way/161574-marc1-proust-2way-8-waveguide-5-5-mid-plaster-corks.html
Crude first try:
Studio Au, Audiophile or Gold, haven't yet decided.
Here my current build thread
http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/multi-way/161574-marc1-proust-2way-8-waveguide-5-5-mid-plaster-corks.html
Crude first try:
An externally hosted image should be here but it was not working when we last tested it.
Hello Bear,
I noticed the use of his/her in your message,
Did it was only a politically expression or do you really wanted to mean that women could read this DiyAudio/Loudspeakers/Mutiway forum?
This is a bit OT but ther was a thread on that topic in a French speaking forum (you'll have to translate it...)
www.elfbi.com :: Voir le sujet - Peu de femmes en haute-fidélité?
Alos I remember that there was in the very first issue of the french magazine la Revue du Son, dated april 1953, a paper intitled:
"trainings in acoustics, why acoustics doesn't interest women."
Best regards from Paris, France
Jean-Michel Le Cléac'h
I noticed the use of his/her in your message,
Did it was only a politically expression or do you really wanted to mean that women could read this DiyAudio/Loudspeakers/Mutiway forum?
This is a bit OT but ther was a thread on that topic in a French speaking forum (you'll have to translate it...)
www.elfbi.com :: Voir le sujet - Peu de femmes en haute-fidélité?
Alos I remember that there was in the very first issue of the french magazine la Revue du Son, dated april 1953, a paper intitled:
"trainings in acoustics, why acoustics doesn't interest women."
Best regards from Paris, France
Jean-Michel Le Cléac'h
Hello Bear,
I noticed the use of his/her in your message,
Did it was only a politically expression or do you really wanted to mean that women could read this DiyAudio/Loudspeakers/Mutiway forum?
This is a bit OT but ther was a thread on that topic in a French speaking forum (you'll have to translate it...)
www.elfbi.com :: Voir le sujet - Peu de femmes en haute-fidélité?
Alos I remember that there was in the very first issue of the french magazine la Revue du Son, dated april 1953, a paper intitled:
"trainings in acoustics, why acoustics doesn't interest women."
Best regards from Paris, France
Jean-Michel Le Cléac'h
"trainings in acoustics, why acoustics doesn't interest women."
there are always exceptions
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