Variac:
Looking at the Beta 12 FR, it does have that big rise at the top. Just like a lot of pro woofers. I know that you and a lot of other guys like to run your woofer "bareback" with no low pass filter. Everyone who does it says it sounds good.
My worry is that it would give a big wide bump around 2K when mated with a tweeter - ever with the tweeter crossed high. On the graphs the only way I can get the 12 and horn to come together anywhere near flat is to put a big inductor on the 12. It certainly looks better on paper - but would it really sound better?
Anyone advice and experience on this would be a big help.
Looking at the Beta 12 FR, it does have that big rise at the top. Just like a lot of pro woofers. I know that you and a lot of other guys like to run your woofer "bareback" with no low pass filter. Everyone who does it says it sounds good.
My worry is that it would give a big wide bump around 2K when mated with a tweeter - ever with the tweeter crossed high. On the graphs the only way I can get the 12 and horn to come together anywhere near flat is to put a big inductor on the 12. It certainly looks better on paper - but would it really sound better?
Anyone advice and experience on this would be a big help.
Got some values on my mid filter
If you run mid all the way down and only cut bass 6-12db around 150-200hz...you might get that extra midbass you want....but could be too much though...and might make phase problems
Looking at "BLUE..." tweeter filter....a bit strange values....could be that ressonance peak at 2khz
Drivers with a "mild" and very wide rise can very well sound better not touching it too much....depends on its nature....but coming from 12LTA which you say sound nice as fullrange...well..
But it will give a higher crossover point....so if you will use that from "Blue..", it will have to be modified a bit....maybe not
Ahh..."Blue..." tweeter filter...overlooked that last resistor....explains that small C
If you run mid all the way down and only cut bass 6-12db around 150-200hz...you might get that extra midbass you want....but could be too much though...and might make phase problems
Looking at "BLUE..." tweeter filter....a bit strange values....could be that ressonance peak at 2khz
Drivers with a "mild" and very wide rise can very well sound better not touching it too much....depends on its nature....but coming from 12LTA which you say sound nice as fullrange...well..
But it will give a higher crossover point....so if you will use that from "Blue..", it will have to be modified a bit....maybe not
Ahh..."Blue..." tweeter filter...overlooked that last resistor....explains that small C
Attachments
You found out that 18" need a big box....thats why I liked in the first place....lots of VAS....I think I calculated 250-300 liter...port 200m2/20cm...nice figures I think
As you mention it will be nice with mid on top of tweeter....plenty of room there....and 18" could be placed higher too....I think it all fits very nicely.....and Punk gets his BIG speaker
As you mention it will be nice with mid on top of tweeter....plenty of room there....and 18" could be placed higher too....I think it all fits very nicely.....and Punk gets his BIG speaker
And jus to be sure you guys do know that I'm using TWO 18" woofers per side.
I've almost made enough money the buy the 4 18" woofers.
So far with my current selection I posted a few pages back my driver cost is up near $850 with shipping. Which is not bad when you think about it.
A MKIII Titanic ( which is the subwoofer I'll add later) assembled w/ plate amp is about the same price.
And if this doesn't mess up your calculations I watched a few videos and I would like for the woofers to be most efficent around the 30 to 70Hz area.
Especially around 50Hz.
I've almost made enough money the buy the 4 18" woofers.
So far with my current selection I posted a few pages back my driver cost is up near $850 with shipping. Which is not bad when you think about it.
A MKIII Titanic ( which is the subwoofer I'll add later) assembled w/ plate amp is about the same price.
And if this doesn't mess up your calculations I watched a few videos and I would like for the woofers to be most efficent around the 30 to 70Hz area.
Especially around 50Hz.
If your going to use 2 woofers per box, think about an isobaric design 1/4 the wood and size with a slightly better sound. personally I have used 1 x 18inch woofer (ev dl18w) in a 600 litre ported box and had a 3db down at 25 hz, this one speaker filled a 350 seat ie Big cinema to full dolby specs (really loud). with 4 18" the seperate TITANIC one would not be noticable I suspect.
In another cinema (250 seat) I siliconed 1 x 18" driver in a 3 metre formatube and got an even deeper response .
4x 18" in your living room?
In another cinema (250 seat) I siliconed 1 x 18" driver in a 3 metre formatube and got an even deeper response .
4x 18" in your living room?
With a name like 18-12 Overture this has to be the best speaker ever!
Good thing we went with the 12"mid, 18-8 Overture makes no sense!
IT will certainly be able to handle the 1812 Overture also --Brilliant!!
tinatus: The reason I thought we might need a smaller than optimal bass box was to try and create a bump up around 70 hz. You are also concerned about this. I hope to have some time to play with the volume and the port to get the bump. Maybe its impossible with an 18" driver though.
Re the midrange, it has a rising response as Pano said, like a lot of wide range drivers. IT is very tempting to put the low inductor in to roll off almost the entire band width of the driver by 6dB. There are a few different places to do it though. If you guys decide we need a crossover at the top (low pass)instead, then we do it, no problem from me.
BUT, it seems that out choice is a low inductor on the mid or a cap and inductor high up. Which sounds worse? I kind of like the low inductor only, but we really don't know...
I've used the 14 gauge laminated metal core Erse on the high end of my woofer and it sounds fine, so that MIGHT be an option to shape the mid but I understand if that scares people. Especially since this is a high power speaker. An air core is going to be pricey.
OK, for the high pass on the mid ie the low cutoff, we can go as low as 200 hz. If we crossed the woofer off at 250 would that give us a bump in the right place?
At the moment, lets get punkr building the boxes, Some of this crossover stuff can come later.
If that 3 way Behringer could roll off the top of the woofer, the bottom of the mid AND shape the mid with a 6db cut that would be great. Can it?
Good thing we went with the 12"mid, 18-8 Overture makes no sense!
IT will certainly be able to handle the 1812 Overture also --Brilliant!!
tinatus: The reason I thought we might need a smaller than optimal bass box was to try and create a bump up around 70 hz. You are also concerned about this. I hope to have some time to play with the volume and the port to get the bump. Maybe its impossible with an 18" driver though.
Re the midrange, it has a rising response as Pano said, like a lot of wide range drivers. IT is very tempting to put the low inductor in to roll off almost the entire band width of the driver by 6dB. There are a few different places to do it though. If you guys decide we need a crossover at the top (low pass)instead, then we do it, no problem from me.
BUT, it seems that out choice is a low inductor on the mid or a cap and inductor high up. Which sounds worse? I kind of like the low inductor only, but we really don't know...
I've used the 14 gauge laminated metal core Erse on the high end of my woofer and it sounds fine, so that MIGHT be an option to shape the mid but I understand if that scares people. Especially since this is a high power speaker. An air core is going to be pricey.
OK, for the high pass on the mid ie the low cutoff, we can go as low as 200 hz. If we crossed the woofer off at 250 would that give us a bump in the right place?
At the moment, lets get punkr building the boxes, Some of this crossover stuff can come later.
If that 3 way Behringer could roll off the top of the woofer, the bottom of the mid AND shape the mid with a 6db cut that would be great. Can it?
Just found these on another thread! NOT suggestiong a clone of them!!!
http://www.lenardaudio.com/05_opal.html
I think we would all want these!. Maybe Punkr can make his that pretty. I suspect he will be gluing pieces of broken glass to the outside though
Hey Punk, see, you could put the second 18 ( the one you probably will never get because you won't need it) in a separate box and put it under the main speaker if you want the tweeters high for dancing or put it on top like these for everyday listening.
HEy! if you made each 18 in a separate box, AND the mid and high together in one box without the 18, you could turn the mid/hi box rightside up or down to adjust height better, and it would look a lot like these...
Cal likes the semi horn loaded mid too I'll bet!
http://www.lenardaudio.com/05_opal.html
I think we would all want these!. Maybe Punkr can make his that pretty. I suspect he will be gluing pieces of broken glass to the outside though
Hey Punk, see, you could put the second 18 ( the one you probably will never get because you won't need it) in a separate box and put it under the main speaker if you want the tweeters high for dancing or put it on top like these for everyday listening.
HEy! if you made each 18 in a separate box, AND the mid and high together in one box without the 18, you could turn the mid/hi box rightside up or down to adjust height better, and it would look a lot like these...
Cal likes the semi horn loaded mid too I'll bet!
Well, I'm gonna get a sub now for two reasons:
1: I couldn't possibly afford it with my current project going on
2: Like you said it probably couldn't keep up so I have to wait till my system is complete so I'll know what to look for.
Yes, I said 4 18" woofers but I'm not blasting them the whole time.
It seems Variac posted while I was typing,
hmmm........
18-12 Overture?
I planning on naming it something like M-4 or since you said 1812 maybe M-1812. I don't know why I'm put an M, it just sounds cool to call your speaker an M-4, almost makes it sounds like some kind of wicked fighter jet.
Well, I huess since you guys are helping so much you should at least get to name them since I'll think about 18-12 Overture but I'm still wanting the slap a trophy label with M-4 written on it on the cabinet when there done.
Variac posted AGain while I was typing.
Damn those look nice but could you imagine how much they would COST!? lot's of $$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$ especailly with shipping.
WOW! a 27" woofer! makes 18" seem like a sissy. I'm gonna look into those just out of curiousity but I'm still for my current project.
1: I couldn't possibly afford it with my current project going on
2: Like you said it probably couldn't keep up so I have to wait till my system is complete so I'll know what to look for.
Yes, I said 4 18" woofers but I'm not blasting them the whole time.
It seems Variac posted while I was typing,
hmmm........
18-12 Overture?
I planning on naming it something like M-4 or since you said 1812 maybe M-1812. I don't know why I'm put an M, it just sounds cool to call your speaker an M-4, almost makes it sounds like some kind of wicked fighter jet.
Well, I huess since you guys are helping so much you should at least get to name them since I'll think about 18-12 Overture but I'm still wanting the slap a trophy label with M-4 written on it on the cabinet when there done.
Variac posted AGain while I was typing.
Damn those look nice but could you imagine how much they would COST!? lot's of $$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$ especailly with shipping.
WOW! a 27" woofer! makes 18" seem like a sissy. I'm gonna look into those just out of curiousity but I'm still for my current project.
HA!....Punk wants two 18"...why doesnt that surprise me
Well then, in this case we have not to be concerned about having enough lowend power....no bump needed....on the contrary
We will have to design box with low Q...very nice indeed...low Fs....BUT IT WILL BE A M O N S T E R
DELTA PRO 12A would be perfect
Punk...I hope that you are aware that crossing that low, as you suggest.....can be done only active
Well then, in this case we have not to be concerned about having enough lowend power....no bump needed....on the contrary
We will have to design box with low Q...very nice indeed...low Fs....BUT IT WILL BE A M O N S T E R
DELTA PRO 12A would be perfect
Punk...I hope that you are aware that crossing that low, as you suggest.....can be done only active
Well, you should know by now that's what I'm shooting for.
Well, if your gonna rethink the woofers think at least try to filter in that I want them to be at their best near 35-50Hz, of course that is when they are pushed with a good clean 500-700 watts or whatever amount of power is needed to make them reach their full potential.
If that's not asking to much.
Variac said:
Oh! Ouch! OuCh!! I just fell out of my chair. Be still my beating heart.
Think I'm in love...OK, back to reality (damn you Variac!!)
No worries getting that 50Hz bump. My 8 foot box tuned to 40Hz does exactly that. You can tune even higher, if you want, for more BOOM. We will work out an easy system for you to change the tuning (which is what I'm doing today on my little speakers).
Two 18s per side! Crikey!! What a beast! OK. Start with just ONE per side. If you want more after that, build another box for the second set and put it underneath, as Variac suggests. It won't be hard to do. And you know what? It gives you somewhere to go. More Bass!! More 18s!! Don't build it all at once, where's the fun in that?
I agree with our friend from down under. With this rig, that titanic sub will not even make a dent.
Call'em the "War of 1812". Might sound better. Or just call 'em "those insane huge monster speakers in my living room."
The 3 way active crossover can do duty for all the drivers, if he buys it. To be determined.
Do you mean going active all the way with a 3-way crossover?
well, I seems nice but that means 3 amp and even a 50 watt amp is expensive unless you know of what amps to use for the tweeters and mid that won't blow a hole through my wallet.
what are copper shortening rings? and what is their purpose?
well, I seems nice but that means 3 amp and even a 50 watt amp is expensive unless you know of what amps to use for the tweeters and mid that won't blow a hole through my wallet.
what are copper shortening rings? and what is their purpose?
Yeah, but how do we cut off the botom of the mid? Maybe better to get the 3 way Behringer active.
Punkrokr: I said maybe get the three way Behringer, but only use part of it. That way we may be able to cut off the woofers, and the mid and shape the mid. BUT only use 2 amps (or one stereo amp per side- one channel for the bass one for the mids and highs. So far the mids and highs are still being considered with passive crossover between them so one channel will do both.
Do you have CraigsList.org online in your area? There's e-bay too but its riskier. Lots of used amps available I'll bet. As Imenioned , look for HAfler or Adcom or ask us if you see others.. You prob need a 200w / ch for the bass and 100w/ch for the mid/highs.. Again if others disagree, speak up..
Copper short rings
Its actually an old patent of danish SKÅNING/Dynaudio....which expired a few years ago....so everybody is doing it now....not entererily neccesary
But it does lower rising impedance....meaning better topend....some claim it makes for less lowend distortion.....and we can see now that salesmen know their stuff
But other things matter more
Its actually an old patent of danish SKÅNING/Dynaudio....which expired a few years ago....so everybody is doing it now....not entererily neccesary
But it does lower rising impedance....meaning better topend....some claim it makes for less lowend distortion.....and we can see now that salesmen know their stuff
But other things matter more
punkrokr1701 said:
Yeah, but you don't have to right away, or even at all.
But if you do get an active, look into fitting a 3 way into the budget. It does have some cool features that a 2 way doesn't. Should run about $40 more if you can afford it. Allows you to expand in the future.
Variac: Looks like an inductor of about 2uH would tame the bump at the top of the Beta 12. Don't know if we really need to, but it might be a good idea if he runs these super loud. That mid bump could get annoying really fast. Sure would pop out the vocals, tho.
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