panomaniac said:Well, just when we had it close to settled - here comes Cal to blow the doors off again!
Sorry about that chief!
I wish my livingroom were big enough as well.
I would recommend mounting the the horn on top. It has a certain elegance about her for an old gal. The drivers are the Selenium 205's. Same as Mark has. The woofers are the Selenium WPU 1507QFC, similar to Marks 1505's. Punkr could go for the 210's and the 1505. The 511 horn also has it's attractions. Not only is it visually pleasing, the ringing brings the cows home. (easily damped)
Oh yeah, those fish on the wall behind the speakers are leftovers from one of Cal's speaker projects.
They most certainly are. Good eyes my friend.
BobEllis said:
Ah, another lover of the past. Good on ya Bob.
Sure helps when you're a hundred feet (30m) away.
BobEllis said:Cal's speakers date back to when watts weren't cheap so they are extremely efficient. Do a search on "Voice of the Theater" and a whole new world may open up for you.
I have been a fan since I was a boy. I only ever dreamed I might fall into the owner category.
Variac said:
It sure is.
Very
Indeed
Since Cal had the audacity to mention this I assume he will now take over and answer all your questions, and help you find plans for the cabinets and the correct crossovers and drivers.
Uh-oh.
That looks like a very nice alternative to the cowbell.
tinitus said:Hi Bob,
To me its not really clear what it is you mean about Cal speaker
It was said they were perfect for this setup...does that mean only bass cabinet...?
Or do you suggest making a complete copy ?
I like that fronthorn on bass
I like them as a full range unit.
The 1505 that Mark has is a good match.
Variac said:-no need for us to butt in!
Please do, I am enjoying the thoughts of others.
Cameron Glendin said:
Agreed
I would think of building your own or check the Altec site for more info.
http://www.hostboard.com/cgi-bin/ultimatebb.cgi/ubb/forum/f/3729
Oh boy, I've caused a stir.
This project started because I need a place to put 4 15" woofers. The guy selling the A4's threw the A7's in for an extra $100Cdn. That opened the door and I went to work.
First thing I did was to stiffen the cabinet horn a bit. Next I decreased the size of the port to about 85 inches^2. This lowers the frequency to about 60 Hz. The horn itself unloads around 100 I think.
The XO, and please forgive the numbers as they are not in front of me, is a high pass cut off at IIRC 2800Hz 12dB. 30 ohms at that point. The tweeter is a weird sort of thing. It's a 6 dB for the 2800 down to about 1800 where it becomes a 12dB. The tweeters are series padded so the impedance was around 20 ohms. The XO is like this as the balance between drivers sounds good doing it this way. I don't measure PA speakers as they are not used at 1 watt and the interactions with the cabinets etc. above that make measuremnts rather unimportant. I fiddled around until they sounded good. I am not worried about the 15 going that high as it sounds fine. Beaming? Who cares it's being splattered out a short horn at 10 to 500 watts. It's also only 7 inches wide at the mouth of the short horn so beaming is further redcued. You don't even notice it. Also note that some PA gear doesn't have enough midrange until you turn it up. Then there is lots. That's how I deal with the listening fatigue problem.
No these are not what you call a natural sounding speaker. These are like the 4X4's of the automotive world. Not pretty or perfect, but for the ability to listen to loud music for hours without getting tired. Plenty of bass, mids and highs and no shriek, no shrill.
This project started because I need a place to put 4 15" woofers. The guy selling the A4's threw the A7's in for an extra $100Cdn. That opened the door and I went to work.
First thing I did was to stiffen the cabinet horn a bit. Next I decreased the size of the port to about 85 inches^2. This lowers the frequency to about 60 Hz. The horn itself unloads around 100 I think.
The XO, and please forgive the numbers as they are not in front of me, is a high pass cut off at IIRC 2800Hz 12dB. 30 ohms at that point. The tweeter is a weird sort of thing. It's a 6 dB for the 2800 down to about 1800 where it becomes a 12dB. The tweeters are series padded so the impedance was around 20 ohms. The XO is like this as the balance between drivers sounds good doing it this way. I don't measure PA speakers as they are not used at 1 watt and the interactions with the cabinets etc. above that make measuremnts rather unimportant. I fiddled around until they sounded good. I am not worried about the 15 going that high as it sounds fine. Beaming? Who cares it's being splattered out a short horn at 10 to 500 watts. It's also only 7 inches wide at the mouth of the short horn so beaming is further redcued. You don't even notice it. Also note that some PA gear doesn't have enough midrange until you turn it up. Then there is lots. That's how I deal with the listening fatigue problem.
No these are not what you call a natural sounding speaker. These are like the 4X4's of the automotive world. Not pretty or perfect, but for the ability to listen to loud music for hours without getting tired. Plenty of bass, mids and highs and no shriek, no shrill.
Punkr,
If you are at all interested, you won't be disappointed but looking at the direction this thread is headed, and all the work the others have done for you, I might suggest you follow their guidelines. You have some good people doing a bang up job researching stuff and making recommendations. If they ever come to a concensus, you can hardly go wrong with that. Good luck again, I wish you success.
If you are at all interested, you won't be disappointed but looking at the direction this thread is headed, and all the work the others have done for you, I might suggest you follow their guidelines. You have some good people doing a bang up job researching stuff and making recommendations. If they ever come to a concensus, you can hardly go wrong with that. Good luck again, I wish you success.
Hey Cal,
Do you have a video camera?
If so I'd like to see a demonstration of those brutes you call speakers.
Everyone here seems so infactuated with these A7's and A4's.
But because I'm a see it to believe it kinda guy I'm not about to go spend all this money on something that I haven't seen in action. Not that I doubt your speakers, I mean obviously they must have somwthing to them cause as soon as you posted again the forum went from figuring out what exactly to use for my tweeter to almost completely about these horn loaded boxes that you own.
Italmost seems like your the "speaker god" in this forum.
lol
Who knows.
Well, I hope you have a video camera cause I'm really anxious to see what you have there.
But right now I'm still not fully convinced I should change my project to these A7's.
That doesn't mean I'm not thinking about it though.
It seems Cal posted whil I was writing, I still wanna see a video of his speakers in action, if that's not to much to ask.
Do you have a video camera?
If so I'd like to see a demonstration of those brutes you call speakers.
Everyone here seems so infactuated with these A7's and A4's.
But because I'm a see it to believe it kinda guy I'm not about to go spend all this money on something that I haven't seen in action. Not that I doubt your speakers, I mean obviously they must have somwthing to them cause as soon as you posted again the forum went from figuring out what exactly to use for my tweeter to almost completely about these horn loaded boxes that you own.
Italmost seems like your the "speaker god" in this forum.
lol
Who knows.
Well, I hope you have a video camera cause I'm really anxious to see what you have there.
But right now I'm still not fully convinced I should change my project to these A7's.
That doesn't mean I'm not thinking about it though.
It seems Cal posted whil I was writing, I still wanna see a video of his speakers in action, if that's not to much to ask.
2 way A7 is ofcourse a cheap and simple solution for punk....woodwork is of no concern I understand....his friend would sure be impressed....my concern i ressonance in a small room
Just for sake of it will remind of my very first suggestion
2-way dappolito with two DELTA 12A and 1" Selenium
Will easily work on its own...all good quality drivers
Punk could later add a compound POWER sub with plateamp
http://www.partsexpress.com/pe/pshowdetl.cfm?&PartNumber=290-510
http://www.speakerplans.com/index.php?id=x1
Just for sake of it will remind of my very first suggestion
2-way dappolito with two DELTA 12A and 1" Selenium
Will easily work on its own...all good quality drivers
Punk could later add a compound POWER sub with plateamp
http://www.partsexpress.com/pe/pshowdetl.cfm?&PartNumber=290-510
http://www.speakerplans.com/index.php?id=x1
Punkrokr,
I think you have a good path worked out.
There are theoretically 40,000 members on this site.
You are hearing from about a half dozen. I think you have narrowed your idea down to something that will be all that you want and more.
Cal likes to talk about his speakers a lot , but I hope he is planning to hold your hand the whole way from now on if you go with his scheme, 'cause if you change again, the original team is out the door!
I think you have a good path worked out.
There are theoretically 40,000 members on this site.
You are hearing from about a half dozen. I think you have narrowed your idea down to something that will be all that you want and more.
Cal likes to talk about his speakers a lot
, but I hope he is planning to hold your hand the whole way from now on if you go with his scheme, 'cause if you change again, the original team is out the door!
While we all had our preferences:
I believe that Pano Tin and Var had come to some agreement that your bass is OK,
If you can't calc the size and vent length cabinets we can do it easily and in fact Pano has started that.
The crossover between bass and mid COULD be active and that would be good, BUT you can't just do it with an adjustable plate amp. You will need at least a 2 way active crossover.You can also do it passively but it will cost about $50 for the parts which isn't bad
The electronic crossover would be a lot of fun though and very usable for future improvements, and for $130 PLUS another amp a deal I think!
The 12" midrange is the one you specced but the same model without the whizzer cone. This needs to be in its own sealed box inside of the big cabinet. This will also be fun and easy to calc.
The crossover to the high may only be needed on the horn driver.
The mid driver poops out completly right where it will cross which is pretty cool.
We are still deciding on the horn driver. We like the Selenium, but without hearing it , its hard to design a crossover that corrects its response. The Blue speaker uses the Eminence driver which is very similar. In my opinion we could probably use the same crossover for both drivers ads their response is quite similar, We have pretty much decided on the waveguide like the Blue speaker or a similar horn. I THINK we all could agree on either one of these.
Sooo, in a few days you could build the boxes. The tweeter horn driver doesn't have to be decided until the boxes are done. but at any point you could just do it like the Blue and that would work fine!
I think you will have to have your 18" on the bottom, then the tweeter, then the 12" above it , so that if you later make a second woofer in a separate box or if you leasve room in the cabinet for a second woofer, the tweeter will be at ear level.
So, it is about ready to go, As I said, by the end of the week I think you could be getting plywood..
OK everyone pile on and correct me
I believe that Pano Tin and Var had come to some agreement that your bass is OK,
If you can't calc the size and vent length cabinets we can do it easily and in fact Pano has started that.
The crossover between bass and mid COULD be active and that would be good, BUT you can't just do it with an adjustable plate amp. You will need at least a 2 way active crossover.You can also do it passively but it will cost about $50 for the parts which isn't bad
The electronic crossover would be a lot of fun though and very usable for future improvements, and for $130 PLUS another amp a deal I think!
The 12" midrange is the one you specced but the same model without the whizzer cone. This needs to be in its own sealed box inside of the big cabinet. This will also be fun and easy to calc.
The crossover to the high may only be needed on the horn driver.
The mid driver poops out completly right where it will cross which is pretty cool.
We are still deciding on the horn driver. We like the Selenium, but without hearing it , its hard to design a crossover that corrects its response. The Blue speaker uses the Eminence driver which is very similar. In my opinion we could probably use the same crossover for both drivers ads their response is quite similar, We have pretty much decided on the waveguide like the Blue speaker or a similar horn. I THINK we all could agree on either one of these.
Sooo, in a few days you could build the boxes. The tweeter horn driver doesn't have to be decided until the boxes are done. but at any point you could just do it like the Blue and that would work fine!
I think you will have to have your 18" on the bottom, then the tweeter, then the 12" above it , so that if you later make a second woofer in a separate box or if you leasve room in the cabinet for a second woofer, the tweeter will be at ear level.
So, it is about ready to go, As I said, by the end of the week I think you could be getting plywood..
OK everyone pile on and correct me
Punkr,
Mark is right. I like to talk about my speakers. Kind of a proud daddy thing I suppose.
I don't own a video recorder and I'm not sure what you would get from it. You want to see the drivers flapping in the breeze?
I think that with the amount of time others have spent with you that perhaps that's the way to go. Everything I've read makes sense, I was just looking at it from a practical standpoint: fewer drivers, less XO = less problems.
There is just something about the 825/828 cabinet (A7) that has PA written all over it. It must be the most popular monitor in the history of the business.
No, I am anything but a god, I am a speakerholic, nothing more.
I will bow out of this now as I am causing more of a stir than a shake. I will only re-enter if I can add to the design the courteous people have put together for you.
Mark is right. I like to talk about my speakers. Kind of a proud daddy thing I suppose.
I don't own a video recorder and I'm not sure what you would get from it. You want to see the drivers flapping in the breeze?
I think that with the amount of time others have spent with you that perhaps that's the way to go. Everything I've read makes sense, I was just looking at it from a practical standpoint: fewer drivers, less XO = less problems.
There is just something about the 825/828 cabinet (A7) that has PA written all over it. It must be the most popular monitor in the history of the business.
No, I am anything but a god, I am a speakerholic, nothing more.
I will bow out of this now as I am causing more of a stir than a shake. I will only re-enter if I can add to the design the courteous people have put together for you.
Banned
Joined 2002
I'm kinda torn here.
As much as I love the A7 - and it's a proven good design,
I don't know if it's right for this project.
Here' why:
Woodworking.
A7 isn't easy to build. Maybe not a problem if dad's an experienced woodworker.
Visual appeal.
From Punkrokr's posts we thought he wanted lots of big drivers that he could see in action. That goes a long way in the "Oh My God" factor. The A7 uses a single 15 hidden behind a waveguide with a horn on top. Looks cool to me, but maybe not to his buddies. The A7 is big, but it's not tall.
Cost:
A big factor. Even though the 15" woofer will be the same price as his 18", cabinet work will be more. And what to do about the highs/mids? We might find a cone or two for the top end. Never seen it done. That seems like a budget killer right there.
Big horns and drivers are NOT cheap. I'm very surprised that CAL is using the 205Ti. Isn't it a 1" driver? You can't cross that one very low. How does that work on the 511? And a 210 on a 1505??!! Yikes! Where is going to find a pair of 1505s cheap? Great horn, I used them with the Westrex equivalent of the Altec 288. Great combo - pure magic - but very pricey!
The 1812 system we worked out will play just as loud as the A7, but it will need 2~3X more power. That's not a big difference for good solid state amps.
I'm not opposed to the A7 route for sonic reasons, but it doesn't seem to fit the budget/application.
However.... If Cal can come up with an affordable mid/high section to match. And if Punkrokr likes the way it looks - why not?
As much as I love the A7 - and it's a proven good design,
I don't know if it's right for this project.
Here' why:
Woodworking.
A7 isn't easy to build. Maybe not a problem if dad's an experienced woodworker.
Visual appeal.
From Punkrokr's posts we thought he wanted lots of big drivers that he could see in action. That goes a long way in the "Oh My God" factor. The A7 uses a single 15 hidden behind a waveguide with a horn on top. Looks cool to me, but maybe not to his buddies. The A7 is big, but it's not tall.
Cost:
A big factor. Even though the 15" woofer will be the same price as his 18", cabinet work will be more. And what to do about the highs/mids? We might find a cone or two for the top end. Never seen it done. That seems like a budget killer right there.
Big horns and drivers are NOT cheap. I'm very surprised that CAL is using the 205Ti. Isn't it a 1" driver? You can't cross that one very low. How does that work on the 511? And a 210 on a 1505??!! Yikes! Where is going to find a pair of 1505s cheap? Great horn, I used them with the Westrex equivalent of the Altec 288. Great combo - pure magic - but very pricey!
The 1812 system we worked out will play just as loud as the A7, but it will need 2~3X more power. That's not a big difference for good solid state amps.
I'm not opposed to the A7 route for sonic reasons, but it doesn't seem to fit the budget/application.
However.... If Cal can come up with an affordable mid/high section to match. And if Punkrokr likes the way it looks - why not?
The 18/12 Overture.
OK, just read Variac. He's got it in the bag.
Dayton 18 on the bottom. Looks like an ~8 ft. box tuned to about 40Hz. Will do some more work on that.
Active crossover to the Mid/High
Eminence Beta 12A-2 for the mid. 1 foot sealed box. Can be inside the woofer box or outside. As Punkrokr wishes.
Passive crossover to waveguide/compression driver.
We will stick with the elliptical waveguide for now. Either the Eminence or the Selenium driver. They aren't that different. Use the hi-pass filter designed for the Blue Wonder.
OK, just read Variac. He's got it in the bag.
Dayton 18 on the bottom. Looks like an ~8 ft. box tuned to about 40Hz. Will do some more work on that.
Active crossover to the Mid/High
Eminence Beta 12A-2 for the mid. 1 foot sealed box. Can be inside the woofer box or outside. As Punkrokr wishes.
Passive crossover to waveguide/compression driver.
We will stick with the elliptical waveguide for now. Either the Eminence or the Selenium driver. They aren't that different. Use the hi-pass filter designed for the Blue Wonder.
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