I'm doing that presently. my main speakers in both my home theater and 2 channel system are 105 db sensitive horns that measure +/- 3db from 23Hz to 20kHz and by integrating my multi-amped 2 channel system into my home theater instead of driving them with an AVR, I give up zero dynamics. My horns are "loaded" with pro drivers: JBL 2225 H 15" woofers, PRV D2200PH midrange in an 18" x 10" horn and B&C DE120 drivers in elliptical, tractrix waveguides. with a DSP processor to time align, flatten response and deliver a quasi-linear phase to 4 mono blocks on the woofers and tweeters and a stereo tube amp on the mids, I give up nothing for either hi-fi or home theater. it is glorious.
Yes, having reserves is great.edit time over, but I have to add that PA drivers are just fine, and perhaps the ticket if you desire dynamics in general. There really isn't much difference between "hifi" and "PA" technology, physics are same for both, it's just that the PA stuff is optimized for louder output, while hifi stuff has a lot of emotion related marketing and that kind of stuff attached. But, a rational speaker builder doesn't care any of it, other than performance in particular application, right, so it doesn't matter what a driver is marketed for, as long as it meets requirements it's the right one to choose.
That said, first "PA" speakers at home, even though they weren't optimally tuned, the capability just makes smile on the face no small speaker can do, no matter how good it sounds otherwise. It really is quite nice when volume knob can be at any position, and it sounds better and better until hearing system says it's too loud. Distortion free full bandwidth clean comfortably loud sound really is great fun
ps. even a mobile phone can be painfully loud, but the pain is due to small bandwidth and bad distortion, not from sheer SPL
It's not only the power of the drivers but the conveyance or system the sound waves use.
The PA thing is kind of a new world to me, although, I did use PA drivers but with hifi horns before.
That's what I'm finding with my DIY Danley SH50s and the Tapped Horns..
They are a completely different conveyance.
They did need refinement in the HF department though for me.
If you have the room (they are not very deep), worth looking into?
SM60s are smaller and more manageable, I'm still plotting a DIY effort sometime, somehow🙂
VERY LITTLE music extends to 16Hz. And it's music MOST people don't listen too.
But movies extend lower as 20Hz for sure. There is a list about films and their spetrum: https://www.avsforum.com/threads/th...ts-bass-charts-are-on-the-first-page.2763785/
I don't have that problem at all. You could level dialog to 65-70dBSpl and just let the rest happen. This way you get maybe 95dB at very loud scenes - that's something your speaker and ears should have no problem with. And 70dBSpl for voice is already loud speaking - should be easy to hear?
It can be a problem in a flat and with kids sleeping cause 95dBSpl is probably to loud for them already.
You need both - low frequencies and high dynamic. At least when you want the movie feeling. In a proper home cinema installation you just use a bunch of subwoofers - with DIY this is not hard to achieve.
My concept is the following.
Get a very good room integration of your subwoofers. This means DBA or single bass array or at least a bunch of woofers strategic set up. Or Dirac ART. These then play very well and balanced from about 20Hz to 80-100Hz.
NO NEED for other speakers to interfere with this range! Stay with THX rules - cut all speakers at about 80Hz and let the woofers do their superiour job. (exception - Dirac ART).
Now you can design speakers with good sensitivity and f3 around 80Hz. Depending on what your level goal ist - ATMOS reference level is pretty brutal (105dBSpl at listener position). A 1" HiFi tweeter can't do that any more - you need a tweeter like Bliesma T34 or a compression driver.
This is my setup:
6x 10" in closed volume arranged as single array. And active 8"/1" main speakers from 90Hz. I searched long for the best components for these mains but am pretty happy with the result. In a larger room you would need 2 8" in a 2.5 way setup to keep ATMOS level.
So - I would not be happy with a PA woofer, ported at 40Hz - you would miss a lot with movies. You could add a shaker for lowest frequencies but I would still aim for 30Hz in the room, prefered from a closed cabinet (cause they fall off slow and are easy to EQ to the room).
PA chassis for the rest is fine but when you want HiFi sound and great midrange you have to chose the right drivers!
p.s.: with screen, still during construction:
Certainly, but my remark was in the context of someone wanting to roll off at 80Hz. The idea of rolling off because there is little there in the first place doesn’t make any sense to me. That’s a reason for not rolling off, surely?
EJP
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Not at all! Pro drivers can offer many advantages providing you have the room to accommodate them. My mains in my HT are JBL Pro drivers set-up as a 4 way full range system. My center though not Pro is a horn system with a 3" compression driver for the mids which keeps up with the L+R. I use Vertec woofers as LFE subs higher sensitivity and power handling.
Rob
Not at all! Pro drivers can offer many advantages providing you have the room to accommodate them. My mains in my HT are JBL Pro drivers set-up as a 4 way full range system. My center though not Pro is a horn system with a 3" compression driver for the mids which keeps up with the L+R. I use Vertec woofers as LFE subs higher sensitivity and power handling.
Rob
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Dunno, no experience with either, but FYI/FWIW you can research movies and from sad/painful/expensive experience the depth charges in the movie U-571 @ reference was too much VLF vibration for my cheaply built floating floor, stick built house.
Smart move, all my HIFI systems have been prosound simply because 'way back when' the affordable amps were limited to < 10 W and as recordings became wider range in both BW and dynamic headroom, saw no point in going backwards by switching to ever higher power amps, though even with prosound drivers, best IME to use Class A/B amps to get the best overall performance from any speaker.
Thank you for all the helpful replies, this post was a bit of a sanity check on my part; having seen the home theatre market dominated by speakers on the wrong side of the size-LF extension-efficiency trade-off.
It begs the question though, why are there not more low bandwidth, high-efficiency mains focused at the home theatre market? Too niche? Lack of consumer knowledge, driving them toward the current mainstream options?
I think you can build a relatively compact, visually appealing speaker that follows this philosophy.
These mains are exactly the kind of thing I was thinking of, although for my purposes, maybe even a little more compact.
It begs the question though, why are there not more low bandwidth, high-efficiency mains focused at the home theatre market? Too niche? Lack of consumer knowledge, driving them toward the current mainstream options?
I think you can build a relatively compact, visually appealing speaker that follows this philosophy.
These mains are exactly the kind of thing I was thinking of, although for my purposes, maybe even a little more compact.
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I’ve tried a few different scenarios over the years. I have found two different set ups to work very well. One is a big t.v. in an apartment, flanked by a pair of old B&W Floorstanders driven by an old Marantz receiver (a good Class AB amp). There’s no sub, no surrounds and misses nothing. Key thing is these stereo speakers are large enough so they dig deep, have impact. Sounds superb on movies and music.
The other is a basement set up, projected image onto a wall painted screen flanked by two large Khorn speakers that are bi-amped with a dsp XO and a pair of PMC Floorstanders at the back for surrounds. A modest 2x8” sub and no centre channel. Dynamics are good and it can go loud. Recently did itself proud during a screening of Master and Commander, blue ray with award winning sound track with an opening sea battle. It needs a sub because the Khorns don’t dig deep with any strength.
So, I would agree that dynamics is a quality to give priority to but there‘s no one answer, depends too much on the room.
(yeah, just like music, some movies sound crap, poor mixing, trying too hard etc.)
The other is a basement set up, projected image onto a wall painted screen flanked by two large Khorn speakers that are bi-amped with a dsp XO and a pair of PMC Floorstanders at the back for surrounds. A modest 2x8” sub and no centre channel. Dynamics are good and it can go loud. Recently did itself proud during a screening of Master and Commander, blue ray with award winning sound track with an opening sea battle. It needs a sub because the Khorns don’t dig deep with any strength.
So, I would agree that dynamics is a quality to give priority to but there‘s no one answer, depends too much on the room.
(yeah, just like music, some movies sound crap, poor mixing, trying too hard etc.)
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Correct 16 Hz is nonsense
you dont really hear it , you feel it.
Most people now live in apartments or condos
so vibrating the whole building makes neighbors complain.
Gone though hundreds of modern movies last year.
Same non amazing bass rumble sample all used by sound engineers these days.
Engine noise or slow motion fight scenes with same old BEEEEEWWWW oooowwwww
sub role. Whispering, breathy actors talking low with compression then sudden bursts of
dumb sound effects.
annoying.
And im one of those weird guys that listens to loud electronic music
and classical music at childish levels.
Good theatre sound is nice mids and no harsh tweeters.
With modern movies your riding the volume knob up and down.
Since dialog is to low and sound effects or dynamics to loud.
I like good dynamics its important. Sound engineers suck these day.
Also learned if a movie is distributed by lionsgate....skip it lol
In my opinion, size / weight and price are the driving factors in the HT business. This is based on the fact that very few people ask for speakers with proper specs with the majority being into small / cute ones that would 'do it all'. Like someone said, this market is beauty / emotion driven, like the one for pocket dogs.
Now, mainstream is something else and that is always expensive. They're also often large, ugly and dull to look at, but they're built more honestly and would follow the datasheet specifications more closely. They're meant for serious users and not for watching the news on TV.
Most people are satisfied with loud sound capability that they'd never use. However, pro equipment is designed to reproduce that loud sound clearly.
YES! Midrange is KEY, I searched long for the right 8" which can still deliver a lot of details >1kHz.
And I also want to stream stuff and just enjoy the content. Not being reminded how the compressor was pumping and what effect signal was driven a little too hot and caused some distortion. I need that with my main listening system but not in the cinema. Finding compression drivers doing that was the 2nd task ... but we have great speaker technology nowerdays, it's totally possible.
I never have this problem. Get the dialog in a good range (not too loud, 65-70dBSpl) and let the rest happen. When the speakers are able to deliver it never feels too loud. There are maybe 20-25dB dynamic range in these mixes - too much for a kitchen speaker but that's still very relaxed with a proper system. I really enjoy the sound of most 4k BluRays in ATMOS, way better as what we had in earlier times.
You can lower dynamics with every BD player and surround receiver - doesn't work to your liking? (never use that)
In proper home cineam builds that's normal. It just not arrived in HiFi world and retailers like to sell big speakers ...
A great cinema system is also great for music - a music system you enjoy is probably not capable enough for cinema.
The KEY in home cinema (and every music system to be honest) is the CONCEPT. It must fit your room and your listening habits. In HiFi you buy/sell a speaker you like/want and just tinker around until you buy the next piece of gear ... that's not possible/too expensive in home cinema. You need to get it right from the beginning, get a subwoofer system fitting and measured to the room, speakers who are able to deliver the level and clarity and fitting the room acoustics (which you also design with the cinema build).
Not cables and racks and gadgets to waste money ...
I was aiming for ATMOS levels and for that you need the 8". Even 2 of them would be needed for a bigger room. But do you know these:
https://www.limmerhorns.de/630-bc1/
Smooth midrange and treble, put them behind a screen and you will never recognise these are PA drivers.
I think the following might help one looking to cook up a 'home theatre', especially the dBSPL and amplifier power aspects for the given distance(s).
http://www.hometheaterengineering.com/splcalculator.html
http://www.hometheaterengineering.com/splcalculator.html