How Good can OBs or ESLs Sound Without DSP?

[Drewan77]

I notice that Oltos mentions me on page 1 of this thread (I haven't looked in much as music listening is my priority).

The DSP I'm using is DEQX (both HDP-5 & HDP-3) & my setup requires very little digital eq once room treatment, phase & time alignment are implemented. Keeping amps/speaker drivers in fairly narrow frequency ranges produces tight, clean and highly transient music.

0-80hz: M&K MX200 ...72dB xover
20-100hz: B&W PV1D ...72dB xover
...72dB Xover 100hz: OB 4x Al/Mag 5" drivers per speaker ...96dB xover - 3140hz
...96dB xover 3140-23khz: OB NEO 3.0 Ribbon
...16dB xover 20k+: Tannoy supertweeter (occasionally used)

I have not changed my basic setup for four years & have no issues with imbalanced frequencies, crossover transitions or room nodes. I was going to build some Pure Audio Project OBs but the people who listen to my system think I am crazy because what I have now sounds pretty special (as close to live music as any system I have heard, with percussion, drums, acoustic instruments and vocals in particular sounding very realistic. Transient attack is frankly incredible, a function of OBs without cabinet compression & two fast subs).

...by the way, before anyone else says it, in spite of digital processing the system is very smooth & transparent - I'm nearly 60 & vinyl has always been my preferred source - the system has 2 Turntabless, SACD, CD & streamed FLAC. I guess removing the smearing created by a typical speaker/room interface has far greater benefits than any supposed pitfalls of DSP.

 

[oltos]

About dsp, you need no cheap minidsp, non ad da conversion....Just take a laptop, use Jriver media player for all your digital music and maybe buy a license for Audiolense or Acourate room correction solution, and you get state of the art dsp capabilities.

Then with a simple Ethernet cable you send the signal with a Ravenna protocol to a Merging Hapi, state of the art (8 or 16 channel) DAC. Should be within your budget, other solution of the same cost are simply obsolete

Assuming you're not speaking of some kind of variant of Ravenna that's under a Merging patent https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ravenna_(networking) do you know of any other "consumer/audiophile" DACs that have this Ethernet functionality? If yes, please give some brands/models.

It looks like the only other DAC that uses Ravenna is Merging's audiophile NADAC; >$9K. No, my DAC budget is ~ $4.5K. Might there be another popular Ethernet protocol for 24 bit audio?

But then would any such DAC still have to have more than one stereo pair of digital in and analog out channels, even if, as you say, all DSP can be done in the digital domain? This is, are four independent D/A channels needed to do DSP for a two channel system?

Btw, which and who's other solution is obsolete? My idea was simply to feed the USB to one DAC with two pairs of outputs to feed the amp driving my mains and to the plate amps of the master subs daisy chained to another pair of OB or sealed pairs. An old school solution perhaps, but it's often said in these pages that the key to success is largely in the implementation. ct01517 happily runs his Dynaudio BM12 sealed subs under his Quad 57 ESLs. https://forum.audiogon.com/discussions/review-quad-57 See photo https://photos.google.com/share/AF1...?key=ZkJTeDBrTWFiT1ozdlY4VmQzUHpQZmo3cER2WE9n Ditto for Octavia. http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/subw...nopole-servo-subs-compatible.html#post4956879

How it is they had reported none of problems that other ESL owner have here have all but insisted must occur without DSP? Might it somehow be largely a matter of mains/subwoofer.room size? That photo of ct0517's room looks to be huge, compared to my dinky 14 ft x 19 condo living room. I don't know about Octavia's, but I think I saw a photo of Bear's room; looks quite large. Btw, he mentioned that his pair of sealed subs work well near his Quad 57s. I don't think he uses DSP either, so far anyway. Indeed, if only it were possible, with my laptop and just one high performance stereo DAC, to do reap all of the benefits of DSP. To use it to analyze the room as a guide to correct it with acoustical materials, and for optimal speaker/subwoofer placement-and then, as Mark100 said, just put it away in the closet.

Speaking of JRiver, how is the SQ of its pitch & time utility? Is it as transparent as, say, Serato PnT or Izotope's Radius? Any other Windows based high res players offering very clean pitch and time?

 

[oltos]

The DSP I'm using is DEQX (both HDP-5 & HDP-3) & my setup requires very little digital eq once room treatment, phase & time alignment are implemented. Keeping amps/speaker drivers in fairly narrow frequency ranges produces tight, clean and highly transient music.
I have not changed my basic setup for four years & have no issues with imbalanced frequencies, crossover transitions or room nodes. ....by the way, before anyone else says it, in spite of digital processing the system is very smooth & transparent....vinyl has always been my preferred source.......

You spoke of your two "fast" subs. Are they OB, sealed, transmission line? Did you DIY or buy them? REL? Rythmik? TBI Sound, et al?

I’m hardly knowledgeable on the uses of DSP, largely because most models used for these purposes have SQ which many claim are below that of most audiophile DACs (e.g. Exasound, Ayre, Antelope. et al). And especially for those of us who use only digital source material, more than one D/A, A/D conversion is really one more too many. My budget for a (one) stereo DAC is rather large as I'm hoping that the model I settle on can upsample reasonably well mastered CD tracks and even some very rare music (e.g. "Unsurpassed Masters") only available on mp3s into better sounding data. Furthermore, jitter reduction strategies, noise-free power supplies and the most natural sounding output stages all add to the cost.

And even though I’m playing uncompressed WAV and FLAC files of CD track rips and 24 bit downloads, it's not like I can afford a second $$$$ DAC to perhaps take a DSP delayed version of the main stereo signal and feed it to that second DAC to drive the mains amp so that the subwoofer fed from the other $$$$ DAC won’t have to play catch up. Otherwise, I’d gladly load that software Kukulcan spoke of. And any room measuring software Ben uses; REW? As long as I can afford the mic and don’t need to be a total physics and precalculus whiz, I’d probably manage to get over the learning curve.

But no multiple stereo DAC channels, no DSP. That’s seems to be the case. And that's the main reason why I started this thread; to find those who might have happily wedded their ESLs and/or OBs with some kind of subs (e.g. Danny Ritchie/Brian Ding OB servo subs, the Ding sealed servo subs, the TBI Magellan transmission line subs, et al).

Please chime with Kukulcan about DSP requirements for computer audio. Can the genie grant our wishes and then vacate our USB ports? And are two stereo DACs needed in any case?

And why do some ESLs owners appear to have no issues with their non-DSPed rooms and subs?

 

[Drewan77]

You spoke of your two "fast" subs. Are they OB, sealed, transmission line? Did you DIY or buy them? REL? Rythmik?

As mentioned in my earlier post: M&K MX200 & B&W PV1D, both are DEQX corrected & sound 'tight' and almost as fast as the OBs. With steep 12th order Xovers & accurate time/phase alignment, these blend perfectly.