A Hint for Better Results
Thought I might offer a hint that I found helpful for comparing the files. I used Reaper, as shown in the images below. File/Project menu is set to force 96kHz at the sound card. Options/Preferences menu is set for ASIO, at least in this example. The time scale at the top of the page is set by right clicking up there to see the menu to select the scale display as shown below in one of the images.
In addition a region has been selected for looping, small adjustments to the end points can be made by holding the shift key and dragging the little triangles at the upper corners of the region. In the images, the region is very short, focusing on a single cymbal hit. The loop button at the right of the play and stop buttons is engaged to allow looping of the region.
As can be seen, all the tracks but one are muted, the red "M" buttons are lit. One track is also soloed, with the yellow "S" button lit. Solo overrides mute, so a soloed track will play even if muted. By un-muting one track, it can be compared to any other track by soloing the other track. Doing so will mute the un-muted track and only any soloed tracks will play. By this means one click of a solo button can be used to instantly switch between two tracks.
What I found out once I started comparing tracks this way, that the differences were very small and rather confounding. I decided to try sorting the files in some kind of order by how they sounded. The tracks can be dragged and dropped at the left side of the display to move them up and down. So, I dragged up and down trying to get them in some useful order. I was hoping I could find the two most different files, arranged at the end of the process with those two at the top and bottom respectively of the display.
The plan was to then ABX the two most different ones. However, once a sort order was arrived at, by that time my ears were tired and I quit until I could find some more time when fresh again. So far, that hasn't happened, but at least I now feel pretty comfortable I know which are the two most different files to compare.
Also, I find this far, far easier that using foobar. Setting up a loop region, focusing on one particular sound, making easy comparisons with one button, and drag and drop to sort, all make this pretty easy and very little distraction from focused listening.
Thought I might offer a hint that I found helpful for comparing the files. I used Reaper, as shown in the images below. File/Project menu is set to force 96kHz at the sound card. Options/Preferences menu is set for ASIO, at least in this example. The time scale at the top of the page is set by right clicking up there to see the menu to select the scale display as shown below in one of the images.
In addition a region has been selected for looping, small adjustments to the end points can be made by holding the shift key and dragging the little triangles at the upper corners of the region. In the images, the region is very short, focusing on a single cymbal hit. The loop button at the right of the play and stop buttons is engaged to allow looping of the region.
As can be seen, all the tracks but one are muted, the red "M" buttons are lit. One track is also soloed, with the yellow "S" button lit. Solo overrides mute, so a soloed track will play even if muted. By un-muting one track, it can be compared to any other track by soloing the other track. Doing so will mute the un-muted track and only any soloed tracks will play. By this means one click of a solo button can be used to instantly switch between two tracks.
What I found out once I started comparing tracks this way, that the differences were very small and rather confounding. I decided to try sorting the files in some kind of order by how they sounded. The tracks can be dragged and dropped at the left side of the display to move them up and down. So, I dragged up and down trying to get them in some useful order. I was hoping I could find the two most different files, arranged at the end of the process with those two at the top and bottom respectively of the display.
The plan was to then ABX the two most different ones. However, once a sort order was arrived at, by that time my ears were tired and I quit until I could find some more time when fresh again. So far, that hasn't happened, but at least I now feel pretty comfortable I know which are the two most different files to compare.
Also, I find this far, far easier that using foobar. Setting up a loop region, focusing on one particular sound, making easy comparisons with one button, and drag and drop to sort, all make this pretty easy and very little distraction from focused listening.
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I was of the same view as you initially. If someone can actually grade the op-amps by technical performance then there has to be some peeking at the files going on. But I retain an open mind.
Can I confirm that, if no one else can replicate, then effectively this becomes an outlier?
Well, Pavel could make new files and sort them however he likes. Won't matter. They should still sort by ear.
EDIT: But, it helps to have a DAC-1 and so forth. I'll bet Mooly could probably do it, he seems to be good at listening. Maybe he can with the hints as is. If not, he might need different gear.
EDIT: But, it helps to have a DAC-1 and so forth. I'll bet Mooly could probably do it, he seems to be good at listening. Maybe he can with the hints as is. If not, he might need different gear.
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We won't have the kind of data to get the nice clustering of points to confirm or deny the claim. So it'd be unfair to call it an outlier, even if it's suspicious data point (for various reasons that don't have a lick of foul play attached to them). The joys of low sample statistics.
I am not dismissing the point out of hand, just remaining skeptical (and mind you, ignorant the source of said point).
I am not dismissing the point out of hand, just remaining skeptical (and mind you, ignorant the source of said point).
Let's not go there Bill. Speaking from experience, nothing good to come from it.
Nor paying attention to "must have the gear" presumption that his view is in fact right.
I do consider it cheating the test to not listen to an entire clip though, as it gets perilously close to find a quiet part and cranking up the volume.
Nor paying attention to "must have the gear" presumption that his view is in fact right.
I do consider it cheating the test to not listen to an entire clip though, as it gets perilously close to find a quiet part and cranking up the volume.
So far as I know, I stumbled on a method that's easier for me than ABX. I assume other people might find a sort test with an easy user interface easier too. Remains to be seen though.
Also, in a recent post I said I am about an hour north of Sacramento and if someone wants to come over here and try it, they can. I could also offer in-person coaching. I just can't believe that someone like Mooly couldn't do it on my system.
EDIT: By the way, I strongly recommend listening to the cymbal hit I have outlined in a region in Reaper. It is very revealing in that in some of the files it sounds a little more forward and sparkly, which I assume is from harmonic distortion.
Also, in a recent post I said I am about an hour north of Sacramento and if someone wants to come over here and try it, they can. I could also offer in-person coaching. I just can't believe that someone like Mooly couldn't do it on my system.
EDIT: By the way, I strongly recommend listening to the cymbal hit I have outlined in a region in Reaper. It is very revealing in that in some of the files it sounds a little more forward and sparkly, which I assume is from harmonic distortion.
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Dan: understood. Although if the DAC-1 is that good, it proves that a 5532 is the go to opamp for all cases other than needing FET input. It almost seems like watching an advert for an OLED TV and going 'damn that picture is better than I currently have'.
I will be interested if the differences following sorting can be still detected in the ABX round.
I will be interested if the differences following sorting can be still detected in the ABX round.
We had one years ago that amounted to a single accidental click on the rim of a snare drum. This analytical detailed approach is the antithesis of actually listening to music for pleasure. Mark OK you've belabored difference let's move on to preference.
A lot of work to prove the 741 really isn't audio nirvana.
It also makes for a great equalizer of the -unobtanium dB errors and ultra-low bit depths and such. (Not that you can't make stupidly low distortion line level with a 5532, but you're not going to get past its ~5 nV/rtHz and modest current noise contribution, nor the output nonlinearity of its OPS in an I/V)
I bet you're doing just fine with your miniDSP stuff.
I think I may have said before that adding a little distortion at a single stage in the audio path may sound better to some people than less distortion. So, preference in that respect is always a possibility.
Personally, I think most or maybe all the files in this test sound fine for casual listening for enjoyment. I don't have a preference for any of them.
All - please let us not be suspicious. And let's wait till the end of the test on June 27, to see if Mark's estimation of op amps "order" (re parameters) was perfect or not. I might like to mention that we have the same op amps in this test as we had in the previous test, but now we have 5 files ...... Interesting, isn't it?
Hi Bill, I do not thing so. Can't imagine the way how to do it and how to assign files to actual op amp types.
More easy, friends.
Some complicate her life. In hearing I have been able to establish a sound quality ranking of the test files.
Some complicate her life. In hearing I have been able to establish a sound quality ranking of the test files.
- ODAC + Marantz + speakers
- ODAC + iFi iCAN (< 1 Ohm) + headphones (120 Ohms)
- ODAC + Marantz (330 Ohms) + headphones (120 Ohms) (with HPF at 180 Hz and Q=0.7 to compensate for the bass boost caused by impedance mismatch)
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It is a hobby, right?
We shall see, at the end, if those who sent me their opinion share the same preferences or not
Re proven distinguishability, no such results yet
Yes, it is fun.
But I have no problem in advertising what hardware I use. It is not necessary to spend a lot of money to enjoy the good recordings, those that excite us.
It is better to spend time and some money to eliminate/reduce (ALL types) noise, interference, continuous (mains) ... in our systems, I think.
But I have no problem in advertising what hardware I use. It is not necessary to spend a lot of money to enjoy the good recordings, those that excite us.
It is better to spend time and some money to eliminate/reduce (ALL types) noise, interference, continuous (mains) ... in our systems, I think.
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