Pirium said:
I always was under the impression that those weren't all that good... i've not heard them, but that is the impression i get from what people who have, and the Klipsch i have heard. Also these don't meet your efficiency crtiteria -- they are rated at 98 dB sensitivity but they are 4 ohms so that means it is 2 W in to get that number, and a couple reviews indicate that the spec is overly optimistic (not uncommon among commercial vendors). These are probably closer to 92 dB.
dave
Eminence Delta 12LF, two RS150-8 drivers wired in parallel in an MTM config with an Hivi SD1.1. That will yield 94dB overall. You also have the benefit of low distortion mids and tweeters so not only will it be loud, it will also sound good.
http://www.partsexpress.com/pe/showdetl.cfm?&Partnumber=290-416
http://www.partsexpress.com/pe/showdetl.cfm?&Partnumber=295-362
http://www.partsexpress.com/pe/pshowdetl.cfm?&Partnumber=297-416 (it says 91dB, but it's actually about 94-95 on the top end. I'd use a waveguide to boost the low end up to the same level: http://www.partsexpress.com/pe/pshowdetl.cfm?&Partnumber=297-416 )
http://www.partsexpress.com/pe/showdetl.cfm?&Partnumber=290-416
http://www.partsexpress.com/pe/showdetl.cfm?&Partnumber=295-362
http://www.partsexpress.com/pe/pshowdetl.cfm?&Partnumber=297-416 (it says 91dB, but it's actually about 94-95 on the top end. I'd use a waveguide to boost the low end up to the same level: http://www.partsexpress.com/pe/pshowdetl.cfm?&Partnumber=297-416 )
sdclc126 said:
Actually all things being equal the opposite is true... all the energy lost has to go somewhere and a lot of it directly or indirectly causes distortion. Plus as Terry points out (but says in a different way) higher power amps to drive low efficiency speakers inherently have higher distortion. (i mean actual distortion, not just the selective and often irrelevant distortion figures commonly provided on a spec sheet)
dave
I have built a pair of MTM's with PHL 1360 midbass and Vifa H26TG35 tweeters. ( Hard to find tweeters with the required efficiency) They are about 95db/watt efficient. Very open, dynamic sound. To my ears they sound much better than the less efficient MTM's they replaced, which sound constrained and closed in by comparison, even though they use good drivers and measure very well. Part of the difference may be the crossovers also, I just never seem to like the sound of higher order (18 db/octave and above) crossovers, unless they are active ( and tube type!). I use them with subs as they won't play much below 40-50 Hz.
quote:
Originally posted by Troy Madden
I have built a pair of MTM's with PHL 1360 midbass and Vifa H26TG35 tweeters.
That sounds interesting. Details?
dave
Parts Express 1 cu. ft. curved side cabinets, rear ported. (See Orca Design for porting recomendation) Walls damped with loaded vinyl (From PE), fiberglass batting top, bottom, sides and back of interior walls.
1.2 mH inductor (16 ga air core) in series with woofers and 12mf cap across woofers (Solen Fast Cap)
6uf poly cap in series with tweeter and .35 mh coil (20 ga) across tweeter with 20 ohm resistor and Zobel (.66uf and 8 ohm resistor) also across tweeter. The zobel probably doesn't amount to much, but I put it in anyway.
Now these are sitting on either side of my big screen TV on stands and have been tuned accordingly so this crossover may not work as well in your situation. However these drivers are easy to work with so it shouldn't be too hard to modify to suit. The PHl's are from Zalytron (ask for a deal on 4!) , the tweeters from Madisound, the cabinets (very nice!) from Parts Express. I am using them bi-amped with PE reference series 12's to bring up the bottom end. The end result is very satisfying! However now I have an idea to build something similar to Zaph's ZDT3's so it never ends!
Originally posted by Troy Madden
I have built a pair of MTM's with PHL 1360 midbass and Vifa H26TG35 tweeters.
That sounds interesting. Details?
dave
Parts Express 1 cu. ft. curved side cabinets, rear ported. (See Orca Design for porting recomendation) Walls damped with loaded vinyl (From PE), fiberglass batting top, bottom, sides and back of interior walls.
1.2 mH inductor (16 ga air core) in series with woofers and 12mf cap across woofers (Solen Fast Cap)
6uf poly cap in series with tweeter and .35 mh coil (20 ga) across tweeter with 20 ohm resistor and Zobel (.66uf and 8 ohm resistor) also across tweeter. The zobel probably doesn't amount to much, but I put it in anyway.
Now these are sitting on either side of my big screen TV on stands and have been tuned accordingly so this crossover may not work as well in your situation. However these drivers are easy to work with so it shouldn't be too hard to modify to suit. The PHl's are from Zalytron (ask for a deal on 4!) , the tweeters from Madisound, the cabinets (very nice!) from Parts Express. I am using them bi-amped with PE reference series 12's to bring up the bottom end. The end result is very satisfying! However now I have an idea to build something similar to Zaph's ZDT3's so it never ends!
if you dont want to mess with JBL recones you can pick up JBL me150h or me120h from JBL europe afaik .
http://tinyurl.com/3cuvgf
http://tinyurl.com/3cuvgf
Baffle step
Baffle step. Its the amplifying effect across the width of your speaker cabinet. This corresponds to a certain frequency. For instance, 1 foot wide cabinet = 380hz. Since most midranges don't play that low (so you could turn it down), the solution is an inductor that has a resistor in parallel--BSC circuit. The purpose of this BSC (for the foot wide cabinet) would drop efficiency above 380hz.
However, if the speaker cabinet were 9" wide, 500hz, you could use that as a midrange crossover point, stick an L-pad on that midrange, and have a speaker that works in a wide variety of room locations.
While most midrange doesn't play lower than 500hz, Tang Band does make a 92db 6-1/2" driver suitable for midrange at any lower crossover point, and there are some PA options as well.
Carefully aimed, with midrange crosspoint at the baffle step, that 92db midrange works with a 95db woofer for most indoor use in whatever size cabinet you want.
Width of speaker enclosure and baffle step frequency:
20" 228hz
18" 250hz
16" 285hz
14" 325hz
12" 380hz
10" 456hz
8" 570hz
6" 670hz
*Aim for -3 db BSC above these frequencies for indoor use.
In-wall and In-ceiling speakers are exempt (the baffle is huge).
Its -6db above these frequencies for outdoor use.
Have fun!
EDIT: See the attached spreadsheet for more options.
Baffle step. Its the amplifying effect across the width of your speaker cabinet. This corresponds to a certain frequency. For instance, 1 foot wide cabinet = 380hz. Since most midranges don't play that low (so you could turn it down), the solution is an inductor that has a resistor in parallel--BSC circuit. The purpose of this BSC (for the foot wide cabinet) would drop efficiency above 380hz.
However, if the speaker cabinet were 9" wide, 500hz, you could use that as a midrange crossover point, stick an L-pad on that midrange, and have a speaker that works in a wide variety of room locations.
While most midrange doesn't play lower than 500hz, Tang Band does make a 92db 6-1/2" driver suitable for midrange at any lower crossover point, and there are some PA options as well.
Carefully aimed, with midrange crosspoint at the baffle step, that 92db midrange works with a 95db woofer for most indoor use in whatever size cabinet you want.
Width of speaker enclosure and baffle step frequency:
20" 228hz
18" 250hz
16" 285hz
14" 325hz
12" 380hz
10" 456hz
8" 570hz
6" 670hz
*Aim for -3 db BSC above these frequencies for indoor use.
In-wall and In-ceiling speakers are exempt (the baffle is huge).
Its -6db above these frequencies for outdoor use.
Have fun!
EDIT: See the attached spreadsheet for more options.
You live in the EU, so have a vast collection of drivers manufactured there. 18Sound, B&C, Beyma, BMS, Ciare, Fane (old stock), PAS, PHL, Precision Devices and RCF spring to mind. As well as these there are many other brands and models from other parts of the world that can be obtained secondhand.Pirium said:
I'm not aware of kits, but if I were starting from scratch, my initial choice would be all 18Sound; 15NMB420 or 15N930 in a ported cab (sealed with a decent sub), a 6ND410 and ND1020/XT120 with say 500 and 2kHz xovers.
I have a mainly JBL based system in construction; 2225, 2123 and B&C DE250 / DDS Eng 1-90 Pro flares in an WMTMW array with tapped horn subs below them. It'll be all active and tube driven, except for the subs.
There will be a similar 18Sound / BMS based system to complete the 4ch HT later. I have most of the drivers, bust need the time and space to make them happen.
The tradeoff with HE designs usually comes with size. Most are large of they have limited LF extension.
www.audioheritage.org (read the Daniel's sytems) has tons of data on JBL drivers, as does http://www.jblpro.com/pages/obsolete.htm and http://www.jblpro.com/pub/technote/tn_v1n24.pdf . You can translate a lot of this generally to other quality HE drivers.
I'll never go back to low efficiency designs again. They sound constipated.
Why do you need > 1kW in a HE design for domestic use?Troy Madden said:
PS: I have a set of modified 1974 Klipschorns too. Wonderful speakers, if flawed. Still better than 99% of stuff on the market.
Why do you need > 1kW in a HE design for domestic use?
I don't have room for the massive ported or horn loaded enclosures pro sound woofers generally require to go down really low. So I use home audio type woofers which have efficiencies around 90db/watt, in relatively small sealed enclosures. In order to reproduce clean, live sounding bass at realistic levels, a lot of power is required. Besides, power is cheap these days, I just bought a 2500 watt amp for $350, it powers 2 15's that fill in below 25Hz. Usually the only time they come into play is when I am watching movies. I do prefer the sound of high efficiency speakers for the high end , (as you say, lower efficiency speakers sound constipated) and am currently runing PHL midbass's and very efficient Vifa horn loaded dome tweeters. Still, I have over 100 watts per channel on them, even though on the average I only need a few watts. It's almost impossible to have too much headroom.
I don't have room for the massive ported or horn loaded enclosures pro sound woofers generally require to go down really low. So I use home audio type woofers which have efficiencies around 90db/watt, in relatively small sealed enclosures. In order to reproduce clean, live sounding bass at realistic levels, a lot of power is required. Besides, power is cheap these days, I just bought a 2500 watt amp for $350, it powers 2 15's that fill in below 25Hz. Usually the only time they come into play is when I am watching movies. I do prefer the sound of high efficiency speakers for the high end , (as you say, lower efficiency speakers sound constipated) and am currently runing PHL midbass's and very efficient Vifa horn loaded dome tweeters. Still, I have over 100 watts per channel on them, even though on the average I only need a few watts. It's almost impossible to have too much headroom.
Your previous post implied you were using HE drivers at LF, hence the question.Troy Madden said:
The TH's I'm going to use are large, but tall and slender and I can fit two quite unobtrusively into the current room and 4 into my house up north (when I get back there). 1100W/ch to drive them and > 100dB efficiency with little or no EQ required should make me popular again with the local constabulary, as I was when I ran LABhorns. No headroom limitations here.
Brett,
how do you find the JBL based drivers 2225, 2123?
what are their respectives effciencies?
you are wiring them in parallel?
where do you buy them in Aus.? must be expensive.
Do you still have your eminenence Beta for sale?
I have a similar setup ie WMTMW but the parts are not that expensive. Still to fill in the gap WW?
cheers.
how do you find the JBL based drivers 2225, 2123?
what are their respectives effciencies?
you are wiring them in parallel?
where do you buy them in Aus.? must be expensive.
Do you still have your eminenence Beta for sale?
I have a similar setup ie WMTMW but the parts are not that expensive. Still to fill in the gap WW?
cheers.
I'll let you know when it's finished, but I expect them to be excellent based upon previous HE Pro drivers I've used.ttan98 said:
With two in parallel and 2.83V at the terminals and at 1m (all according to Unibox with the correct T/S parameters, not the ones in the DB)ttan98 said:
2225H - 104.4dB
2123J - 102.6dB
compression drivers on flares - all > 108dB
Yesttan98 said:
I have sources in the trade. Not too bad.ttan98 said:
Yesttan98 said:
Sorry, I don't understand.ttan98 said:
Brett,
What is the Qts for the Eminence Beta?
Is it 15in?
do you think they would make open baffle woofer?
I may take them off you if the price right.
I have a similar setup ie WMTMW but the parts are not that expensive. Still to fill in the gap WW?
I mean I need to purchase 4 woofers, 2 woofer per side.
cheers.
What is the Qts for the Eminence Beta?
Is it 15in?
do you think they would make open baffle woofer?
I may take them off you if the price right.
I have a similar setup ie WMTMW but the parts are not that expensive. Still to fill in the gap WW?
I mean I need to purchase 4 woofers, 2 woofer per side.
cheers.
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