Here is my Story..
I am in the research of which project to build now and 3-4 months and i Do need your help guys!
I have to say that i dont have knowledge around measurments. graphs etc.I only know what sounds great in my ears and what not! So please dont bomb me with measure this and measure that!
So far i ve built 2-3 pairs of 2 way speakers but always the result is dissapointing in terms of sound quality.So i decided to go for an already made project that works!
In my house i have a pair of CIVIL speakers ( http://www.emimikos.gr/shop/product.php?productid=16895&cat=492&page=1 ) and i am quite satisfied.
I dont have the golden ears to see the diferences in high end audio, i just want a few things from my system and i ll try to explain.
1st: The speakers i need must be efficient, meaning that they will play maybe 8-10 hours a day, every day. they will be driven with about 20-50 Watts RMS
2nd: I want great overall tonal balance! I hate toooo much bass and i hate toooo shiny highs! For example a friend of mine has a pair of B&W DM601 speakers (the ones with the golden tweeter), very detailed sound but too "thin" sound for my needs.It lacks filled bass reproduction
3rd: i would like them to be able to play quite loud with as less distortion as possible.
4th: I would like them to look fancy!I am not attravted by black usual woofers or tweeters!I would like to see something special in my eyes! Scanpeaks ring radiator tweeters look very attractive in my eyes and woofers with bullet type dustcaps etc look also super!
5th: I want to spend MAXIMUM 300euros for the parts i need for both speakers.
6th: I think i liKE monitor sound..
I dont worry about box construction as my best friend is the best carpenter in my island and everything will be made for free!
My source will be a PC with on board soundcard, i listen all day on line radio stations and 192-320Kbps Mp3s..But i want it to be able to perform great when a better source is used in the near future!.
one kit i am looking and seems attractive is the Hi-Vi Research Melody from Solen.ca but i want to see for something else too as sensitivity seems to be very low and it is too costly (shipping) ..to buy from USA-Canada. (cant find Hi-Vi in EU shops) European shops are prefered.
Thats some of my thoughts. We will talk about more in the progress!
Thanks in advance for all your comments!
I am in the research of which project to build now and 3-4 months and i Do need your help guys!
I have to say that i dont have knowledge around measurments. graphs etc.I only know what sounds great in my ears and what not! So please dont bomb me with measure this and measure that!
So far i ve built 2-3 pairs of 2 way speakers but always the result is dissapointing in terms of sound quality.So i decided to go for an already made project that works!
In my house i have a pair of CIVIL speakers ( http://www.emimikos.gr/shop/product.php?productid=16895&cat=492&page=1 ) and i am quite satisfied.
I dont have the golden ears to see the diferences in high end audio, i just want a few things from my system and i ll try to explain.
1st: The speakers i need must be efficient, meaning that they will play maybe 8-10 hours a day, every day. they will be driven with about 20-50 Watts RMS
2nd: I want great overall tonal balance! I hate toooo much bass and i hate toooo shiny highs! For example a friend of mine has a pair of B&W DM601 speakers (the ones with the golden tweeter), very detailed sound but too "thin" sound for my needs.It lacks filled bass reproduction
3rd: i would like them to be able to play quite loud with as less distortion as possible.
4th: I would like them to look fancy!I am not attravted by black usual woofers or tweeters!I would like to see something special in my eyes! Scanpeaks ring radiator tweeters look very attractive in my eyes and woofers with bullet type dustcaps etc look also super!
5th: I want to spend MAXIMUM 300euros for the parts i need for both speakers.
6th: I think i liKE monitor sound..
I dont worry about box construction as my best friend is the best carpenter in my island and everything will be made for free!
My source will be a PC with on board soundcard, i listen all day on line radio stations and 192-320Kbps Mp3s..But i want it to be able to perform great when a better source is used in the near future!.
one kit i am looking and seems attractive is the Hi-Vi Research Melody from Solen.ca but i want to see for something else too as sensitivity seems to be very low and it is too costly (shipping) ..to buy from USA-Canada. (cant find Hi-Vi in EU shops) European shops are prefered.
Thats some of my thoughts. We will talk about more in the progress!
Thanks in advance for all your comments!
hello.
here are a few links for looking around............
www.intertechnik.de
www.oaudio.de
www.lautsprechershop.de
www.visaton.de
www.monacor.com
www.audioaktiv.at
greetings.................
here are a few links for looking around............
www.intertechnik.de
www.oaudio.de
www.lautsprechershop.de
www.visaton.de
www.monacor.com
www.audioaktiv.at
greetings.................
Take a look at the Marcatos. They are a 2way MTM that uses the Usher 8945P and the B&G neo3pdrw tweeter in a transmission line enclosure. These are a little over you budget, but well worth it, IMO, about 433 Euro's in drivers and crossover parts.. I did the crossover design and Paul Kittinger did the rest, including the TL. At a recent DIY event, in my opinion, which was shared by most of the attendees I talked to, they bested some high end MTM's, the HT2, by Salk Sound (over $2000/pair, IIRC). Below are some links to comments and information about them. I've tried to attach a pdf write up of them, but I'm not sure if it will work. Contact me with your email and I can send it to you.
http://techtalk.parts-express.com/showthread.php?t=210747&highlight=Marcatos
http://techtalk.parts-express.com/showthread.php?t=210210&highlight=Marcatos
http://techtalk.parts-express.com/showpost.php?p=1563476&postcount=10
[/IMG]
http://techtalk.parts-express.com/showthread.php?t=210747&highlight=Marcatos
http://techtalk.parts-express.com/showthread.php?t=210210&highlight=Marcatos
http://techtalk.parts-express.com/showpost.php?p=1563476&postcount=10
Tony Gee's Hatt SE or Hatt MKIII fits most of your requirements, the fancy looks are up to your carpenter I suppose...
I built a pair of the MKIII's for about 350 Euros, using Goertz inductors and Clarity Cap SA caps. A very, very versatile design, great with tubes (up to a reasonable volume), ss as well as PC.
Another route could be single driver, Planet10's website will give you some ideas in that area.
Good luck, have fun...
I built a pair of the MKIII's for about 350 Euros, using Goertz inductors and Clarity Cap SA caps. A very, very versatile design, great with tubes (up to a reasonable volume), ss as well as PC.
Another route could be single driver, Planet10's website will give you some ideas in that area.
Good luck, have fun...
Hatt MKIII certainly looks attractive but i think i would like slightly biger and stronger. All 4-5 inch woofer setups that i ve heard seem to me slightly small. I ll explain, i ve a friend that owns a Car HiFi store and Home theater setups. So i had the chance to listen to some speakers mainly small speakers using 4" and 5" woofers. I was disapointed or at best not satisfied almost by all the setups.one speaker that i liked listening to was Magnat Quantum 703 but it uses a 6" woofer. and anothewr speaker that actualy SHOCKED me both for its sound but also with its price was the ATC SCM-19. A radio producer wanted the ATC's for his studio so i was lucky that i had the chance to listen to them driven by an old big NAD amp (I didnt note model.i think about 100WRMS)
As for Planet10's Fonken really looks attractive to me but i am slightly afraid of low freq reproduction.Ok i dont want it toooo deep and too powerfull but at least i want it tight and i d love to hear it going a bit low. From what i read around Full range designs arent the best in low freq reproduction. Please correct me if i am wrong, or maybe i ve listened to the wrong speakers.
As for Planet10's Fonken really looks attractive to me but i am slightly afraid of low freq reproduction.Ok i dont want it toooo deep and too powerfull but at least i want it tight and i d love to hear it going a bit low. From what i read around Full range designs arent the best in low freq reproduction. Please correct me if i am wrong, or maybe i ve listened to the wrong speakers.
The HATTs are small, but if constructed correctly do sound excellent, giving the pair I built up was difficult... until the next project...
The Fonken is indeed not the last word in bass, it's best when utilized with a good subwoofer, but I thought it may fit the bill in light of the parameters you set.
That said, it's your thread; have a look at Troels Gravesen, his designs are wide ranging, though the 300 Euro limit will quickly be reached here. ZaphAudio is another great designer, a specialist in getting the most "bang for your buck". I've built a few of their designs over the years but nothing within 300 Euro. Several of these designs have been built by forum members so technical assistance should be easy to find.
One final thought: Maybe a slightly larger full range will do, it would fit within your budget and there are no cross over parts to buy! Look at 6 or even 8 inch full range designs.
Good Luck!
The Fonken is indeed not the last word in bass, it's best when utilized with a good subwoofer, but I thought it may fit the bill in light of the parameters you set.
That said, it's your thread; have a look at Troels Gravesen, his designs are wide ranging, though the 300 Euro limit will quickly be reached here. ZaphAudio is another great designer, a specialist in getting the most "bang for your buck". I've built a few of their designs over the years but nothing within 300 Euro. Several of these designs have been built by forum members so technical assistance should be easy to find.
One final thought: Maybe a slightly larger full range will do, it would fit within your budget and there are no cross over parts to buy! Look at 6 or even 8 inch full range designs.
Good Luck!
some good value 2-ways on Jay's site, my pick:
http://www.geocities.com/woove99/Spkrbldg/Peerless_HDS_2Way.htm
http://www.geocities.com/woove99/Spkrbldg/Peerless_HDS_2Way.htm
Guys thank you all for your valuable help..
From what i ve seen the lit tha looks very interesting in my eyes is
this: http://www.troelsgravesen.dk/SEAS_CA18RLY-COMPACT.htm
Using Seas CA18RLY and Seas 22TAF/G tweeter. I did a small research and these drivers seem to perform quite well!
PeteMcK the speaker u told me definitely looks great but i dont seem to be able to find the speakers in Europe...
So any other info up to the end of the week is really welcome!
Monday i order!
From what i ve seen the lit tha looks very interesting in my eyes is
this: http://www.troelsgravesen.dk/SEAS_CA18RLY-COMPACT.htm
Using Seas CA18RLY and Seas 22TAF/G tweeter. I did a small research and these drivers seem to perform quite well!
PeteMcK the speaker u told me definitely looks great but i dont seem to be able to find the speakers in Europe...
So any other info up to the end of the week is really welcome!
Monday i order!
Okay, now what if you had to choose between this kit:
http://www.solen.ca/pub/cms_nf_catalogue_kit_detail.php?idkit=16&g=1&kn=2+way+kits
and this kit:
http://www.troelsgravesen.dk/SEAS_CA18RLY-COMPACT.htm
The first uses Hi-Vi D6.8 woofer and Hi-Vi SS1II tweeter, all with Solen Crossover components, cost about 305 Euros including shipping from Canada to Greece.
The second uses Seas CA18RLY woofer and Seas 22TAF/G tweeter, all with Jantzen components. cost around 315 Euros including shipping from Denmark To Greece.
What would you think might perform better in terms of clarity,tonal balance, freq response and overal performance? does anyone have experience with these drivers?..
http://www.solen.ca/pub/cms_nf_catalogue_kit_detail.php?idkit=16&g=1&kn=2+way+kits
and this kit:
http://www.troelsgravesen.dk/SEAS_CA18RLY-COMPACT.htm
The first uses Hi-Vi D6.8 woofer and Hi-Vi SS1II tweeter, all with Solen Crossover components, cost about 305 Euros including shipping from Canada to Greece.
The second uses Seas CA18RLY woofer and Seas 22TAF/G tweeter, all with Jantzen components. cost around 315 Euros including shipping from Denmark To Greece.
What would you think might perform better in terms of clarity,tonal balance, freq response and overal performance? does anyone have experience with these drivers?..
From a very subjective point of view, I'd go for the SEAS design. Simply because I have experience with SEAS drivers and not with Hi-Vi drivers. The latter never appealed to me (can I be any more subjective?).
If I were to place this design at the top of my "wish-list", I'd challenge it with Zaph's "Seas L18 / Seas 27TBFCG" and "ZA-SR71" design. The latter utilizes the ER18RNX and 27TBFCG.
The 27TBFCG and 22TAF (as well as the Peerless 810921 which is slightly more expensive) are some of the best (value) tweeters my money has bought (steering away from a controversial "money can buy").
Back to your question, if you go for Troels' design, judging by the cross-over, the units, and my experience with some of his other designs, you will not go wrong. The drivers are some of the best available in that price range. The 22TAF, if used correctly, with the right cross over, will give you great clarity and balance. It's never aggressive (again - right cross over) and will give you a flat reponse up to 20Khz. The CA18RLY is a solid performer though I'd prefer the RNX instead of the RLY for a ported design.
Kali Tihi (Greek Font's not working)
If I were to place this design at the top of my "wish-list", I'd challenge it with Zaph's "Seas L18 / Seas 27TBFCG" and "ZA-SR71" design. The latter utilizes the ER18RNX and 27TBFCG.
The 27TBFCG and 22TAF (as well as the Peerless 810921 which is slightly more expensive) are some of the best (value) tweeters my money has bought (steering away from a controversial "money can buy").
Back to your question, if you go for Troels' design, judging by the cross-over, the units, and my experience with some of his other designs, you will not go wrong. The drivers are some of the best available in that price range. The 22TAF, if used correctly, with the right cross over, will give you great clarity and balance. It's never aggressive (again - right cross over) and will give you a flat reponse up to 20Khz. The CA18RLY is a solid performer though I'd prefer the RNX instead of the RLY for a ported design.
Kali Tihi (Greek Font's not working)
If in the future i decide to use these speakers (troes design i mentioned before) for L/R in my home theater do you think i may need a sub too?i listen only at low spl's because my brother who lives next door has small children! .so i dont care really about earthquake sittuations.my current setup using a pair of towers (civil's) with 2x6" is ultra enough with its bass..also if later i build a center speaker using same series drivers matching will be ok i guess right?..
Hmm..i ll do some search around and perhaps i ll settle to troels design..
I dont know why but i am not that attracted by metal woofer cones....my car tweeters though are my Really big love!!Infinity Kappa Perfect T..
By the way i always respect Dutch peoples oppinion!I have many many Dutch family friends!
.so i dont care really about earthquake sittuations.my current setup using a pair of towers (civil's) with 2x6" is ultra enough with its bass..also if later i build a center speaker using same series drivers matching will be ok i guess right?..Hmm..i ll do some search around and perhaps i ll settle to troels design..
I dont know why but i am not that attracted by metal woofer cones....my car tweeters though are my Really big love!!Infinity Kappa Perfect T..
By the way i always respect Dutch peoples oppinion!I have many many Dutch family friends!
There're a few ways to answer your question, but in practical terms (terms often forgotten in these discussions) I don't believe you'll need a sub. It sounds like you don't want to have the sound "resonate" throughout the house. I'd try it without first, if you feel the sound is too "thin" for a movie you can always decide to add a sub later, they're fun to build...!
It's important that the center speaker has the same characteristics as your main speakers so I'd stick with the same design (again... practical).
I understand the aversion towards metal woofers, I had the same idea until I heard one of Zaph's L18 designs in Germany a while ago and was very presently suprised (blown away actually). Still, the Troels design is truly an excellent choice and great value for the money!
As for opinions; I'm always careful with tehm on this forum, there are many who you can debate with in a constructive manner, unfortunately there are those who... well, you know.
With regards to the Dutch part, I lived in Greece for three years in the early 90's and have, till this day, good and loyal friends there. There's so much I love about Greek society and culture that I'd have to move to another forum to express it.
Love the language too by the way, was quite good at it "back in the day".
It's important that the center speaker has the same characteristics as your main speakers so I'd stick with the same design (again... practical).
I understand the aversion towards metal woofers, I had the same idea until I heard one of Zaph's L18 designs in Germany a while ago and was very presently suprised (blown away actually). Still, the Troels design is truly an excellent choice and great value for the money!
As for opinions; I'm always careful with tehm on this forum, there are many who you can debate with in a constructive manner, unfortunately there are those who... well, you know.
With regards to the Dutch part, I lived in Greece for three years in the early 90's and have, till this day, good and loyal friends there. There's so much I love about Greek society and culture that I'd have to move to another forum to express it.
Love the language too by the way, was quite good at it "back in the day".
well a year ago i had the chance to listen to 2 ELAC speakers setups (the one with the ribbon tweeter) and a cheaper one, and i cant say i was really enthusiastic about them, also a KODA setup using 2x8" woofers, only boom boom and nothing else..thats why i am slightly sceptic about metal cones.
One think that i didnt mention at all is off axis performance. Well many times my listening position is way of axis so i think that good spatial of high frequencies are welcome.
One think that i didnt mention at all is off axis performance. Well many times my listening position is way of axis so i think that good spatial of high frequencies are welcome.
If the Scanspeak revelator 18W woofer looks fancy to you, although it is a black cone one, and you like the ring radiators, I may offer you a way to go. Look in the marketplace where Evilukai has a lot of these woofers for sale, price is very reasonable, around 85 euros each and they have been used just for tests ( nothing to worry about on your side ). He is a good guy and honest seller. A pair of these will cost you 170 euros plus around 20 for shipping to Greece. You may pair them with a Vifa Xt25TG ring radiator, which retails at around 70 euro for the pair. This will leave about 40 euros for the xovers which will be very simple as these drivers do not need impedance correction if crossed at around 2Khz and they sound great with 2nd order. Visaton inductors aren`t expensive and will provide good results, as for caps - I do not recommend their MKP, it is lean and cold, you may go with Clarity caps, i think the caps and the coils will fit into the budget of 40 euro. This will provide you with a great sounding bookshelf speaker which will be hard to beat by any commercial speaker under 3-4k euros
I`ll be going to Chalkidiki from the 3rd of Sep to the 10th, if you have questions - we could drink some ouzo there and discuss your project, I have already built sich a pair ( floorstanders ).
Cheers,
Mario
I`ll be going to Chalkidiki from the 3rd of Sep to the 10th, if you have questions - we could drink some ouzo there and discuss your project, I have already built sich a pair ( floorstanders ).
Cheers,
Mario
Well i didnt look at all at kits using revelators simply because they were too expensive..everywhere i read about them i hear only good words so i think it is hard to go wrong with them right?..i contacted him and if he gives me a good price then i will buy them and afterwards i ll look for what design to build..
What will u do in Chalkidiki man?Come to an Island to see what fresh sea water is!! I know a place in Samos with the absolutely best seafood and another with BBQ-meat to die for!..HE HE HE.
What will u do in Chalkidiki man?Come to an Island to see what fresh sea water is!! I know a place in Samos with the absolutely best seafood and another with BBQ-meat to die for!..HE HE HE.
Okay so the next question is, what is your opinion for Scanspeak revelator 18W woofer everybody?!for 170-200euro a pair seems to be a good option right? so a nice combo with these woofers logicaly will be better than the setups i mentioned before right?.
What do you think about this tweeter: Hertz ML280 car tweeter?..It seems as a really great tweeter .Its usual price is over 350euros per pair but i can buy it really cheaper...around 180-200e...
Any comments?
http://www.hertzaudiovideo.com/default_en.htm
What do you think about this tweeter: Hertz ML280 car tweeter?..It seems as a really great tweeter .Its usual price is over 350euros per pair but i can buy it really cheaper...around 180-200e...
Any comments?
http://www.hertzaudiovideo.com/default_en.htm
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