This 12" Hivi may be all you need, with metal cone to match the Thiel
In 60 liter BR its 3db down at 30hz
http://www.swanspeaker.com/product/htm/view.asp?id=84
BD15 will probably be the only "PA" driver you will ever find with underhung voice coil
My calculations in closed are 100hz/-3db, 80hz/-6db, 45hz/-12db
You might find that all PA 12-15" midbass drivers are to be used mainly above 100hz
BECAUSE many PA subdrivers is to be used mainly above 40hz
BTW....I am sure these two 18" would work nice in a pure 3way BR
http://www.precisiondevices.co.uk/showdetails.asp?id=84
http://www.precisiondevices.co.uk/showdetails.asp?id=77
In 60 liter BR its 3db down at 30hz
http://www.swanspeaker.com/product/htm/view.asp?id=84
BD15 will probably be the only "PA" driver you will ever find with underhung voice coil
My calculations in closed are 100hz/-3db, 80hz/-6db, 45hz/-12db
You might find that all PA 12-15" midbass drivers are to be used mainly above 100hz
BECAUSE many PA subdrivers is to be used mainly above 40hz
BTW....I am sure these two 18" would work nice in a pure 3way BR
http://www.precisiondevices.co.uk/showdetails.asp?id=84
http://www.precisiondevices.co.uk/showdetails.asp?id=77
And once again these nice drivers are completely forgotten
http://www.etongmbh.com/
The 12" will be 3db down at 55hz in closed and should make a nice midbas, allthough "only" 91db .... the laws of physics but may also be a better match fore a regular 18" subdriver
BTW... I have been told that some of the older 6" Thiel with low SPL actually sound better than the new model
In the design process you should all along look at the whole speaker, and not just pick one driver at a time
http://www.etongmbh.com/
The 12" will be 3db down at 55hz in closed and should make a nice midbas, allthough "only" 91db .... the laws of physics
but may also be a better match fore a regular 18" subdriverBTW... I have been told that some of the older 6" Thiel with low SPL actually sound better than the new model
In the design process you should all along look at the whole speaker, and not just pick one driver at a time
Wow ! Thanks for all your answers ! OK, I have to take the time to think calmly about all this.
@jeff mai : I sure will take a look at your Iconic drivers. Thank you !
@KOA : I had already come over PHL. Some drivers look good, but I think the BD15 from BD Design looks better in many aspects.
@tinitus : Wow ! Nice look for the HiVi ! But again... have you seen the Mms ? 162g. The BL ? 16,8N/A. The Vas ? Only 81L. The HiVi just look similar to the Aura's, and this is not what we're looking for here (although I'm sure they will be fine for someone else).
Precision Devices are more interesting for us. As for Eton... well, it would be very logical to associate an Eton driver with the Accuton, since that's what Avalon is doing with their fabulous Isis ! But that would be too easy : we're not trying to make an Avalon clone here, we're trying to experiment !
@jeff mai : I sure will take a look at your Iconic drivers. Thank you !
@KOA : I had already come over PHL. Some drivers look good, but I think the BD15 from BD Design looks better in many aspects.
@tinitus : Wow ! Nice look for the HiVi !
But again... have you seen the Mms ? 162g. The BL ? 16,8N/A. The Vas ? Only 81L. The HiVi just look similar to the Aura's, and this is not what we're looking for here (although I'm sure they will be fine for someone else).Precision Devices are more interesting for us. As for Eton... well, it would be very logical to associate an Eton driver with the Accuton, since that's what Avalon is doing with their fabulous Isis ! But that would be too easy : we're not trying to make an Avalon clone here, we're trying to experiment !
Maybe you forgot that we are in active crossover here. My calculations show that the BD15 with 80W/16Ohms in a 120L BR cabinet tuned @38,9Hz can deliver 104dB @ 30Hz, with a reasonable group delay and without exceeding its Xmax. So it is perfectly usable down to 30Hz.
Yes I agree, Iconic does look interesting - any idea about the cost of these drivers ?
But I am surprised its underhung ... poleplate doesnt look very thick, or maybe thats why its recommended as a horn driver ?
BTW ... are you sure its ok to have both subs and midbass in BR .... I ask because I have never tried that
Damm, I often think of speaker design like sitting between two chairs
But I am surprised its underhung ... poleplate doesnt look very thick, or maybe thats why its recommended as a horn driver ?
BTW ... are you sure its ok to have both subs and midbass in BR .... I ask because I have never tried that
Damm, I often think of speaker design like sitting between two chairs
<<Stored energy in relationship with a given surround performance. Indeed I believe that often the external surround is optimized in a pure mechanical domain, taking no account of propagation issues at the edge of the cone (reflected waves) in the breakup region: as for example, high Q of stiff cones aren't damped. High mass means high impedance, so even higher inner cone energy. What I'm not sure is how this problem does affect the performance of the driver within its pure pistonic motion. Any thought?>>
The behaviour of the moving system in the breakup region should not be much of a concern, since you are limiting the driver to 250Hz. This is especially true if the diaphragm is made of a material with some semblance of self-damping, e.g. paper as opposed to aluminum.
Mass increases Q and decreases sensitivity, of course, but higher Q is not necessarily evil for a bass driver. See here: http://www.geocities.com/kreskovs/Box-Q.html
<<I agree....However, with an underhung motor I'm still sure about the linearity of the magnetic field within its complete excursion. Rarely manufacturers give us the possibility to know about the shape and amount of copper (shorting rings...) of their motors. For ex, as far as I know, Eighteen-sound build drivers with one or two or three rings, how to be aware of the value of their effect?>>
Here, I shall retreat to a previously-expressed point: look to distortion figures instead of motor type, BL(x) functions, or number of shorting rings. Consider that low distortion is the end, while BL(x) is only a means to that end. However, if you are dead set on using drivers without published distortion specs, such things may indicate lower distortion... I would be inclined to go with the drivers that do have them.
<<Here too, how many manufacturers do show such measurements?
Off the top of my head, besides Accuton... JBL, Beyma, and Seas provide distortion graphs. Precision Devices provides THD at specified power for some drivers.
<<For low-end, probably OK, but a stiff cone reduces distorsions in the upper-bass / low-mid ranges, without any doubt.>>
Without a doubt? Is such a reduction significant? How does one go about checking that? There are few drivers that are exactly the same save for the diaphragm material. Moreover, breakup peaks in the response, even when out of the passband, may have an effect on distortion within the passband.
<<Yes, here to I have to agree...but same problem: sensitivity is not the most commonly given parameter and effciency seems not to be allways correctly stated.>>
I was not aware that there are any drivers worthy of consideration whose sensitivity is not specified. Efficiency is not very useful, and is rarely specified.
The behaviour of the moving system in the breakup region should not be much of a concern, since you are limiting the driver to 250Hz. This is especially true if the diaphragm is made of a material with some semblance of self-damping, e.g. paper as opposed to aluminum.
Mass increases Q and decreases sensitivity, of course, but higher Q is not necessarily evil for a bass driver. See here: http://www.geocities.com/kreskovs/Box-Q.html
<<I agree....However, with an underhung motor I'm still sure about the linearity of the magnetic field within its complete excursion. Rarely manufacturers give us the possibility to know about the shape and amount of copper (shorting rings...) of their motors. For ex, as far as I know, Eighteen-sound build drivers with one or two or three rings, how to be aware of the value of their effect?>>
Here, I shall retreat to a previously-expressed point: look to distortion figures instead of motor type, BL(x) functions, or number of shorting rings. Consider that low distortion is the end, while BL(x) is only a means to that end. However, if you are dead set on using drivers without published distortion specs, such things may indicate lower distortion... I would be inclined to go with the drivers that do have them.
<<Here too, how many manufacturers do show such measurements?
Off the top of my head, besides Accuton... JBL, Beyma, and Seas provide distortion graphs. Precision Devices provides THD at specified power for some drivers.
<<For low-end, probably OK, but a stiff cone reduces distorsions in the upper-bass / low-mid ranges, without any doubt.>>
Without a doubt? Is such a reduction significant? How does one go about checking that? There are few drivers that are exactly the same save for the diaphragm material. Moreover, breakup peaks in the response, even when out of the passband, may have an effect on distortion within the passband.
<<Yes, here to I have to agree...but same problem: sensitivity is not the most commonly given parameter and effciency seems not to be allways correctly stated.>>
I was not aware that there are any drivers worthy of consideration whose sensitivity is not specified. Efficiency is not very useful, and is rarely specified.
Go here:
http://www.pioneer.eu/eur/products/45/200/1083/TL-1602/index.html
TAD TL-1602. It can achieve all that you seek. Highly precise, advanced design, superior motor, modern construction, low Fs (21hz), highly efficient (97 db). Carbon fiber reinforced paper (extremely stiff). X-max shown at 5.5mm yet X-dam shown at 36mm. Neoprene surround (last forever) and you'd have the best Alnico motor in the world.
You could even use a transform circuit, a 15-20hz high pass and still play it well over 500hz.
Alas, it is among the more expensive drivers - List $735US. Still well worth it.
________________________________________________
My system:
Front L & R:
1 - Tad TL-1602 (stereo subs) to 100hz
2 - Cabasse 21 NDC
1- Focal 6WM
1 - Focal TD5
Center & rears; same W/O TAD TL-1602
All speakers internally mounted (including Center & rears, w/o TAD's) with 4 channel TriPath TA2022 amps (41 hz kit). LR24 active crossovers, Jensen transformers, balanced input.
TAD TL-1602 driven by TriPath TA0104A 400 watt amps. TAD TL-1602 in tapered pipe configuration extending up through the canter entire speaker. TAD TL-1602 downfiring (with active Transform and high pass, 15hz) . All other enclosures encircle sub-pipe. Similar effect of the B & W Prestige.
Cabinets built similar to the TAD Model 1 (edge glued and routered to shape). Time aligned narrow baffle (Ebony trim). Interior and exterior reinforced with Carbon fiber. Interior, with Carbon shread embedded in high strength epoxy, then coat with soft spray on urethane. All enclosures lightly filled with dacron.
Exterior finished in a final spray of translucent black epoxy with gold powder. Clear coated and polished.
All driven by Lexcon MC1 preamp.
http://www.pioneer.eu/eur/products/45/200/1083/TL-1602/index.html
TAD TL-1602. It can achieve all that you seek. Highly precise, advanced design, superior motor, modern construction, low Fs (21hz), highly efficient (97 db). Carbon fiber reinforced paper (extremely stiff). X-max shown at 5.5mm yet X-dam shown at 36mm. Neoprene surround (last forever) and you'd have the best Alnico motor in the world.
You could even use a transform circuit, a 15-20hz high pass and still play it well over 500hz.
Alas, it is among the more expensive drivers - List $735US. Still well worth it.
________________________________________________
My system:
Front L & R:
1 - Tad TL-1602 (stereo subs) to 100hz
2 - Cabasse 21 NDC
1- Focal 6WM
1 - Focal TD5
Center & rears; same W/O TAD TL-1602
All speakers internally mounted (including Center & rears, w/o TAD's) with 4 channel TriPath TA2022 amps (41 hz kit). LR24 active crossovers, Jensen transformers, balanced input.
TAD TL-1602 driven by TriPath TA0104A 400 watt amps. TAD TL-1602 in tapered pipe configuration extending up through the canter entire speaker. TAD TL-1602 downfiring (with active Transform and high pass, 15hz) . All other enclosures encircle sub-pipe. Similar effect of the B & W Prestige.
Cabinets built similar to the TAD Model 1 (edge glued and routered to shape). Time aligned narrow baffle (Ebony trim). Interior and exterior reinforced with Carbon fiber. Interior, with Carbon shread embedded in high strength epoxy, then coat with soft spray on urethane. All enclosures lightly filled with dacron.
Exterior finished in a final spray of translucent black epoxy with gold powder. Clear coated and polished.
All driven by Lexcon MC1 preamp.
Very nice system Teh !
I also love TAD (1602, and why not 1601 instead ?). I only see two problems :
1°) Price. TAD is very expensive (you pay the brand). But they sure are worth it !
2°) Availability. Where on earth can you get TAD drivers ? Here in Europe nobody sells them (well, almost nobody) and they are way too expensive because there's no competition.
So I'd love to be able to get them in the US, because the Dollar is quite low at this time compared to the Euro. If you have the URL of an american TAD reseller, maybe I can contact them and try to deal with them. Thanks in advance.
Teh said:
I also love TAD (1602, and why not 1601 instead ?). I only see two problems :
1°) Price. TAD is very expensive (you pay the brand). But they sure are worth it !
2°) Availability. Where on earth can you get TAD drivers ? Here in Europe nobody sells them (well, almost nobody) and they are way too expensive because there's no competition.
So I'd love to be able to get them in the US, because the Dollar is quite low at this time compared to the Euro. If you have the URL of an american TAD reseller, maybe I can contact them and try to deal with them. Thanks in advance.
@Teh : now we're talking !!!
I always had thought that TAD drivers were too expensive. Well, indeed they are... but the prices at proaudiodesigns are almost affordable ! Hmm, I really have to take some time to think this over very carefully. Decisions, decisions...
A big THANK YOU for finding such great prices (I doubt we can find better than that... but who knows ? )
Jose
I always had thought that TAD drivers were too expensive. Well, indeed they are... but the prices at proaudiodesigns are almost affordable !
Hmm, I really have to take some time to think this over very carefully. Decisions, decisions...A big THANK YOU for finding such great prices (I doubt we can find better than that... but who knows ?
)Jose
I think the TAD 11" is really something special, but why am I not convinced... about TAD being so very special ... well, maybe because of the laws of physics
We are talking about people messing with big and very expencive 4way horns, and in this game the TADs are the "bottom"
I have never seen any measurements at all .... I would not be keen on just buying a hype
Up to 200hz ... will it really be any better than a PrecissionDevices PDN.18BR40(made fore studio sound), or maybe a 12"ETON / HIVI
But its your game, and I wont mess with it no more
We are talking about people messing with big and very expencive 4way horns, and in this game the TADs are the "bottom"
I have never seen any measurements at all .... I would not be keen on just buying a hype
Up to 200hz ... will it really be any better than a PrecissionDevices PDN.18BR40(made fore studio sound), or maybe a 12"ETON / HIVI
But its your game, and I wont mess with it no more
tinitus, please forgive me. In fact I didn't mean I was going to buy a TAD right away ! I was just happy because Teh managed to find such great prices, that's all.
I'm considering TAD just like I'm considering the other serious candidates, no more, no less. We haven't decided yet which one we'll choose in the end. The serious candidates right now are :
BD-Design BD15
Iconicspkrs 165-xx
Altec 515
TAD 160x
JBL
...
I'm considering TAD just like I'm considering the other serious candidates, no more, no less. We haven't decided yet which one we'll choose in the end. The serious candidates right now are :
BD-Design BD15
Iconicspkrs 165-xx
Altec 515
TAD 160x
JBL
...
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