Exactly what I'm saying, Jürgen. 
Times are a changing, John.
You're part of the industry that formed the established conceptions about waste and it's disposal.
Do you expect me to accept you as a reference?
I didn't claim that.
And the sludge actually contains more than only rust and copper salt (something you also didn't explain exhaustively)...
I'm not tallking about pure copper or the matrial the pipes are made from, but about disposed waste! If you've got waste copper cluttering your local water supplies, you'd better be concerned.
Now you're drifting off.
I'm not preachig to anyone, especially not to any experts.
You may have your own set opinion. Good for you.
But don't tell beginners and amateurs to flush any hazardous waste (of any kind) down their drains just because you don't care.
Cheers,
Sebastian.
Times are a changing, John.
You're part of the industry that formed the established conceptions about waste and it's disposal.
Do you expect me to accept you as a reference?
I didn't claim that.
And the sludge actually contains more than only rust and copper salt (something you also didn't explain exhaustively)...
I'm not tallking about pure copper or the matrial the pipes are made from, but about disposed waste! If you've got waste copper cluttering your local water supplies, you'd better be concerned.
Now you're drifting off.
I'm not preachig to anyone, especially not to any experts.
You may have your own set opinion. Good for you.
But don't tell beginners and amateurs to flush any hazardous waste (of any kind) down their drains just because you don't care.
Cheers,
Sebastian.
waste disposal
Why not direct all your energy to the mega-tonnages of really hazardous stuff that surrounds us all....??? (trains, planes, boats, cars, energy.. that sort of thing)
... rather than display your patronizing ignorance of the quantities involved? We're not talking about plutonium here...
My position is based on measurable quantities... not idle speculation.. so it's not an opinion at all.
I'm well aware of the "changing face of pollution concerns"... so yes, you are preaching...
There's alot of hot air floating around about what individuals can do to help... and most of it, including your chastisement of disposing of small hobby quantities of relatively innocuous waste is part of it.
bye...
Why not direct all your energy to the mega-tonnages of really hazardous stuff that surrounds us all....??? (trains, planes, boats, cars, energy.. that sort of thing)
... rather than display your patronizing ignorance of the quantities involved? We're not talking about plutonium here...
My position is based on measurable quantities... not idle speculation.. so it's not an opinion at all.
I'm well aware of the "changing face of pollution concerns"... so yes, you are preaching...
There's alot of hot air floating around about what individuals can do to help... and most of it, including your chastisement of disposing of small hobby quantities of relatively innocuous waste is part of it.
bye...
Putting environmentalism-as-religion aside, there's a difference between industrial waste and minuscule quantities being generated by a home-made PCB. If the thought of adding 0.00000000000001% to the level of copper and iron (neither classified as heavy metals and both present in cookware) in the municipal effluent horrifies you, then a peroxide or persulfate type etchant might be preferable.
People who wish to practice environmental religion (as opposed to rational cost/benefit tradeoffs) can plate out or precipitate any copper in the solution and send it to a recycler, who will laugh at the half gram or so and chuck it in the trash. You can feel good knowing that the energy you used to plate out that copper generated far more pollution than your process prevented, but after all, it's not whether or not something is truly beneficial, it's how it makes you feel that's important.
BTW, if the idea of copper sulfate seeping into the ground offends you, please do not go into any European vineyards, where copper sulfate treatments are quite standard (Bordeaux mixture). The concentrations used there are orders of magnitude higher than we're talking about for hobby electronics waste.
theAnonymous1 said:I just purchased 1lb. of anhydrous ferrous chloride. I need someone to check my numbers so I don't end up botching the whole mixing process.
The etching solution ratshack sells is about 40% FeCL by weight and 1-3% HCI.
So 1lb. = 454 grams and 1 liter of water weighs 1kg. That would mean I need just a tad bit more than 1 liter of water correct?
That doesn't seem like a lot of solution to me. I didn't do the math before hand and was hoping 1lb would make a little bit more than 1 liter. For what I paid for the anhydrous powder I could have just bought 4 16oz. bottles of pre-mixed. Oh well, live and learn.
Hi, looks like you're making some nice boards there.
I'm wondering if you've found a particular photo paper that
works well for the toner transfer method. I tried it recently
and had a hard time getting the paper off.
Pete B.
I use Kodak "Instant Dry" semi-gloss paper. It's the only paper I have ever tried, but it seems to come off without too much effort.
A 25 sheet pack at wals-mart set me back about $8.
http://cgi.ebay.com/NEW-Kodak-Digit...hZ001QQcategoryZ73455QQtcZphotoQQcmdZViewItem
A 25 sheet pack at wals-mart set me back about $8.
http://cgi.ebay.com/NEW-Kodak-Digit...hZ001QQcategoryZ73455QQtcZphotoQQcmdZViewItem
auplater,
sounds like you're used to arguing with and against religious thinking. Sorry for you. That's not to say it applies to me. I already commented on the inappropriate use of the term 'preaching' for me making myself clear. Repetition doesn't make this better...
Each time I did a repetition by myself, I explicitly mentioned it and gave a reference, as in quote. That's arguing, as in discussing on a forum.
As for the discussion: this forum site is a form of one-to-many (or rather some-to-many) communication. Everyone of us is just one, with a single opinion. But by broadcasting an ill advise you might amplify senseless behaviour. Again, this might not be of importance or relevance to you. But it does for me. Bye.
SY,
why is it that people talk about religion once someone has an opinion (based on false or true information) and stands to it?
I am perfectly aware that there are more relevant pollution sources, either in quantity and in quality. But how does that make everyone's behaviour totally unimportant.
And what do I have to do with European wine yards? Because I'm European? Oh boy!!!
I know you're used to comparing winery around the world, because of your way of living (in the wine country). But still...
Guys,
all I'm saying is that copper sludge (or any other potentially hazardous chemical waste, as opposed to neutralized, harmless substances) doesn't belong into the sink. My personal opinion and advice to you, your mileage may vary. How is that difficult to understand?
Sorry for polluting the thread.
Cheers,
Sebastian.
PS: Copper actually is classified as a heavy metal. At least last time I checked.
sounds like you're used to arguing with and against religious thinking. Sorry for you. That's not to say it applies to me. I already commented on the inappropriate use of the term 'preaching' for me making myself clear. Repetition doesn't make this better...
Each time I did a repetition by myself, I explicitly mentioned it and gave a reference, as in quote. That's arguing, as in discussing on a forum.
As for the discussion: this forum site is a form of one-to-many (or rather some-to-many) communication. Everyone of us is just one, with a single opinion. But by broadcasting an ill advise you might amplify senseless behaviour. Again, this might not be of importance or relevance to you. But it does for me. Bye.
SY,
why is it that people talk about religion once someone has an opinion (based on false or true information) and stands to it?
I am perfectly aware that there are more relevant pollution sources, either in quantity and in quality. But how does that make everyone's behaviour totally unimportant.
And what do I have to do with European wine yards? Because I'm European? Oh boy!!!
I know you're used to comparing winery around the world, because of your way of living (in the wine country). But still...
Guys,
all I'm saying is that copper sludge (or any other potentially hazardous chemical waste, as opposed to neutralized, harmless substances) doesn't belong into the sink. My personal opinion and advice to you, your mileage may vary. How is that difficult to understand?
Sorry for polluting the thread.
Cheers,
Sebastian.
PS: Copper actually is classified as a heavy metal. At least last time I checked.
Hi,
What printer did you use and how did you transfer?
From a chat with Tom Gootee and own attempts I know that either the printer and the transfer heat, time and pressure play a major role. Perhaps you can give some hints, as the Kodak paper seems to be more widely available than most of the usual transfer media.
Thanks,
Sebastian.
theAnonymous1 said:
What printer did you use and how did you transfer?
From a chat with Tom Gootee and own attempts I know that either the printer and the transfer heat, time and pressure play a major role. Perhaps you can give some hints, as the Kodak paper seems to be more widely available than most of the usual transfer media.
Thanks,
Sebastian.
I had also read Gootee's method and wanted to use the Staples paper, but three are no Staples locally and I didn't want to mail order any. The Kodak was my first random choice and it works OK for me.
I use an HP LaserJet 1100 to do the printing. I've learned to not use too much pressure as it can distort and smear the image.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Heavy_metals
Report on toxicity of copper......
http://www.atsdr.cdc.gov/toxprofiles/tp132.pdf
I agree with SY in the fact that any FeCL you pour down the drain is going to have negligible effect on the environment. There are no wells where I live and the area is already so heavily polluted from past industrial efforts that I don't lose any sleep at night about the small amounts I might let down the drain. Does that make me a bad person? Hey, at least I'm not making millions of dollars when I do it.
I use an HP LaserJet 1100 to do the printing. I've learned to not use too much pressure as it can distort and smear the image.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Heavy_metals
Report on toxicity of copper......
http://www.atsdr.cdc.gov/toxprofiles/tp132.pdf
I agree with SY in the fact that any FeCL you pour down the drain is going to have negligible effect on the environment. There are no wells where I live and the area is already so heavily polluted from past industrial efforts that I don't lose any sleep at night about the small amounts I might let down the drain. Does that make me a bad person? Hey, at least I'm not making millions of dollars when I do it.
pollution
It's interesting the twisted thought processes of the environazis and politicians..
Back in 1985, we installed an RO unit to purify the local city water (Centerville, Ohio) for some inkjet nozzle mfg. processes (we'd been buying bottled DI in 100 gal batches, but needed more than could be delivered)
After installing the RO, running it for 2 weeks producing multi 10's megohm DI water in 500 gallon/day for 2 weeks, we got a call from the municipal sewer dept., stating we were in violation of local effluent maximum concentrations of the dreaded COPPER contaminant...
As we weren't using any COPPER in our processing, we were at wits end to determine where it was coming from (they'd traced the source to our sewer feed).. something I used to do myself when with the EPA...
As it turns out, the waste stream from our RO unit was concentrating the copper level of the INCOMING city water and dumping it into the sewer... so in essence, we were contaminating the sewers with city drinking water....
Makes a lot of sense, eh?? So we had to install a stripper to remove the COPPER and some other misc. crap that already was in the DRINKING water from the municipality... we were basically just being penalized for using already palatable water,... go figure.
So legal issues being what they are.. there are bigger fish to fry than hobby enthusiasts trying to make pc boards... one can only hope the environazi zealots some day get a life...
John L.
It's interesting the twisted thought processes of the environazis and politicians..
Back in 1985, we installed an RO unit to purify the local city water (Centerville, Ohio) for some inkjet nozzle mfg. processes (we'd been buying bottled DI in 100 gal batches, but needed more than could be delivered)
After installing the RO, running it for 2 weeks producing multi 10's megohm DI water in 500 gallon/day for 2 weeks, we got a call from the municipal sewer dept., stating we were in violation of local effluent maximum concentrations of the dreaded COPPER contaminant...
As we weren't using any COPPER in our processing, we were at wits end to determine where it was coming from (they'd traced the source to our sewer feed).. something I used to do myself when with the EPA...
As it turns out, the waste stream from our RO unit was concentrating the copper level of the INCOMING city water and dumping it into the sewer... so in essence, we were contaminating the sewers with city drinking water....
Makes a lot of sense, eh?? So we had to install a stripper to remove the COPPER and some other misc. crap that already was in the DRINKING water from the municipality... we were basically just being penalized for using already palatable water,... go figure.
So legal issues being what they are.. there are bigger fish to fry than hobby enthusiasts trying to make pc boards... one can only hope the environazi zealots some day get a life...
John L.
sek said:John,
Watch out, buddy!
Cheers,
Sebastian.
Excuse me?? I'm just the messenger here... try googling the term.. might learn something
http://www.floppingaces.net/2007/02/16/more-environazi-silliness/
John L.
Godwin! Godwin!! for goodness sake!
I just cannot believe this discussion about the propriety of occasional disposal of a few ounces of copper/iron etching sludge into the toilet exists. This does not represent an "I don't care" attitude, as some have accused. As in all things in life, wise folks realize there are trade-offs revolving around cost/benefit.
Those savvy enough to understand mineralogical and geological systems would well know that, just as there is a water cycle, a CO2 cycle, etc. etc... the levels of copper in most any water source occurring most anywhere in the world would not be materially affected by such disposal, since deposition/dissolution of mineral content of all matter of metals is an ongoing process, and contrary to popular sound bite logic, the oceans / rivers / groundwater ARE a huge buffer wrt such miniscule quantities.
I had hoped that subtle references to this process would suffice, but, alas, those bent on zero tolerance can't let it be....
John L.
I just cannot believe this discussion about the propriety of occasional disposal of a few ounces of copper/iron etching sludge into the toilet exists. This does not represent an "I don't care" attitude, as some have accused. As in all things in life, wise folks realize there are trade-offs revolving around cost/benefit.
Those savvy enough to understand mineralogical and geological systems would well know that, just as there is a water cycle, a CO2 cycle, etc. etc... the levels of copper in most any water source occurring most anywhere in the world would not be materially affected by such disposal, since deposition/dissolution of mineral content of all matter of metals is an ongoing process, and contrary to popular sound bite logic, the oceans / rivers / groundwater ARE a huge buffer wrt such miniscule quantities.
I had hoped that subtle references to this process would suffice, but, alas, those bent on zero tolerance can't let it be....
John L.
First of all, I also agree that there are so few "experimenters" and DIY folks dumping tiny amounts of waste products into water return paths and we are spread so far apart from each other that it amounts to absolutely nothing compared to what a local industry or even natural run-off might do.
STOP READING HERE IF YOU WANT TO STAY ON TOPIC...
Sorry for rathole... but I understand why some may get more concerned than others about waste products deemed more hazardous than your average cleaning product.
I'm glad that environmentalists are out there helping to keep everything in balance even though they have to overcompensate to reach their goals. Sure, there are plenty of extremists that give average concerned people a bad name but it's not all bad. I'm not all that supportive and I seldom even think about it... but it's easy to imagine how bad things would be if nobody cared at all or if people weren't allowed to take up a cause and run freely with it.
--- regarding the politics of environmentalists ---
I think the counterpoint was... this is a global discussion group where sensitivities are not limited to American normal. Coming up with names that clearly define a stereotype environmentalists in a negative and somewhat harsh way may work to your advantage in say... the local pub... but it does not work as well when dealing with a global audience that may not even completely understand your intentions.
In fact, unlike what seems to be the viewpoint of many Americans, talking negatively about saving the environment and those who take up the cause will not win you any good marks when non-Americans are involved. I can see that the term that was used clearly worked at getting attention... but maybe the wrong kind.
I'm not saying we need to be so politically correct that we border on sounding like "dumb and dumber" talking to each other, I hate all that Politically Correct stuff anyway. I can see that many who come here do not know English as a first language much less the slang terms we toss around and when a term also is used to evoke strong emotion... it might miss the mark entirely.
OK, I'm now trying to slink off my soap box in the hopes I don't get banned...
STOP READING HERE IF YOU WANT TO STAY ON TOPIC...
Sorry for rathole... but I understand why some may get more concerned than others about waste products deemed more hazardous than your average cleaning product.
I'm glad that environmentalists are out there helping to keep everything in balance even though they have to overcompensate to reach their goals. Sure, there are plenty of extremists that give average concerned people a bad name but it's not all bad. I'm not all that supportive and I seldom even think about it... but it's easy to imagine how bad things would be if nobody cared at all or if people weren't allowed to take up a cause and run freely with it.
--- regarding the politics of environmentalists ---
I think the counterpoint was... this is a global discussion group where sensitivities are not limited to American normal. Coming up with names that clearly define a stereotype environmentalists in a negative and somewhat harsh way may work to your advantage in say... the local pub... but it does not work as well when dealing with a global audience that may not even completely understand your intentions.
In fact, unlike what seems to be the viewpoint of many Americans, talking negatively about saving the environment and those who take up the cause will not win you any good marks when non-Americans are involved. I can see that the term that was used clearly worked at getting attention... but maybe the wrong kind.
I'm not saying we need to be so politically correct that we border on sounding like "dumb and dumber" talking to each other, I hate all that Politically Correct stuff anyway. I can see that many who come here do not know English as a first language much less the slang terms we toss around and when a term also is used to evoke strong emotion... it might miss the mark entirely.
OK, I'm now trying to slink off my soap box in the hopes I don't get banned...
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