an anecdote... ultimate mis-comprehension
heheh.. reminds me of my sons' entry into junior high (8th grade) at a new school. He was somewhat precocious re: computers and such, and related that on his second day in computer class, someone had accessed a, shall we say, inappropriate website (featuring scantily clad women) on one of the schools systems. Upon being informed of this, his teacher (woman in her mid 30's)decided the proper course of action was to break out the scotch tape, find an appropriately opaque piece of cardboard, and tape a cover over the monitor to protect the school from such a horrific event.
and to think they make on/off switches and such just for this kind of occurence...
John L.
heheh.. reminds me of my sons' entry into junior high (8th grade) at a new school. He was somewhat precocious re: computers and such, and related that on his second day in computer class, someone had accessed a, shall we say, inappropriate website (featuring scantily clad women) on one of the schools systems. Upon being informed of this, his teacher (woman in her mid 30's)decided the proper course of action was to break out the scotch tape, find an appropriately opaque piece of cardboard, and tape a cover over the monitor to protect the school from such a horrific event.
and to think they make on/off switches and such just for this kind of occurence...
John L.
You don't understand the subject. You're not qualified to have a 'premise'.
If you were you wouldn't be positing this ridiculous scenario. You'd be arguing the case I'm arguing.
When someone comes on here and makes one of these impossible suggestions and gets shot down by half-a-dozen people unanimously on the basis that the firmware doesn't support the conclusion, that's it.
End of story.
Let's think about what would happen if the 6 respondents were wrong...
Somebody with greater expertise, experience or insight would suggest a better explanation.
There would be a chorus of groans and apologies and the new explanation would be accepted. That's the beauty of the forum, and that's the calibre of the correspondents.
Once a consensus is formed, the likelihood of it being wrong is extremely small. When I say extremely small, I mean VANISHINGLY small.
Is that happening here?
No.
A bunch of people with self-admittedly no real expertise are thrashing around producing less-and-less likely explanations in the hope of finding some loophole overlooked by the experts. You take a tiny crumb of knowledge from the periphery of the known and try to parlay it up into a winning hand in a welter of extravagant rhetoric. Electronics is not amenable to analysis by rhetoric.
'Nature does not care how smart you are.'
Nor do we.
In order to invent or discover something new, you have to be familiar with the limits of what is known, what is called 'prior art'.
If you guys want to be heard you need to demonstrate at least equal familiarity with prior art to that of the 'experts'. This requires work. There are no shortcuts. When you can design and build a computer from scratch, and I mean including writing the CPU in VHDL and a compiler for a HLL to suit, oh, and a UART so you get some understanding of synchronicity and buffering, then come back, let me check your code, and see if you want to continue to argue this nonsense.
It's not as though this is a difficult or equivocal issue. It's blindingly obvious to anyone who has built such systems. It's not even like the case of the RF Attenuators. There was some room for argument there. There is NONE in this case.
w
Unless of course this is just some kind of emotional issue with authority. Perhaps you always wanted to argue with the teacher/lecturer/professor (your dad)? Take it to some agony aunt.
@Joseph K: speak of a ridiculous comparaison. There is no place for opinion here. There is no room for "taste". I might not be able to fullfill the requirements of wakibaki but my brother certainly can and when he's telling me that there is zero room for audible differences encoded in identical files, I'm more than willing to bow to his expertise.
And anyhow, you don't need to meet wakibaki requirements... a basic understanding of the protocols involved in the transmission of digital files inside a computer is more than enough in the matter.
And anyhow, you don't need to meet wakibaki requirements... a basic understanding of the protocols involved in the transmission of digital files inside a computer is more than enough in the matter.
The only part containing relevant information to the investigation here is the FAT, ~defining the future readout sequence = power supply modulations, => possible clock jitter modulation.
Even if one transfers the data - by default always only partially! - into a RAM, while reading it out from the RAM into the DAC the clock ps will be modulated by the readout process / transfer to the RAM of the next blocks!
I see a lot of loosely defined processes here, with a lot of place for opinions!
Ciao, George
Even if one transfers the data - by default always only partially! - into a RAM, while reading it out from the RAM into the DAC the clock ps will be modulated by the readout process / transfer to the RAM of the next blocks!
I see a lot of loosely defined processes here, with a lot of place for opinions!
Ciao, George
And would like to repeat: I did not propone this topic, I am not a supporter of it, I do not have direct personal experience in it.
But this blindfolded closedminded rigid execution of anybody trying a bit more open minded and maybe curious..
And mind You, I'm still considering myself an objectivist
But this blindfolded closedminded rigid execution of anybody trying a bit more open minded and maybe curious..
And mind You, I'm still considering myself an objectivist
We can all suggest various faults in playback which may account for perceived or real differences. This is not the issue. People are claiming differences in data, in spite of conclusive evidence that there are none. This is not a sign of an open mind, but a closed one - a preference for perception over reality. These people really are trying to argue that black is white, and seem puzzled that we beg to differ!
Electronics is not a democracy
Electronics is not a democracy
I shouldn't have to point this out.
Electronics doesn't work the way you vote for it to work.
Electronics doesn't work the way the guy who argues best says it works.
Electronics works its own sweet way.
It doesn't work the way your intuition says it works.
It doesn't work the way you think it ought to work.
It doesn't work the way you'd like it to work.
It works the way it works.
In this context, some opinions are valuable. Some opinions are valuelesss.
A person with a valueless opinion today can have a valuable one tomorrow.
All that is required to make an opinion valuable is that it should be informed with respect to the way electronics works.
This is not a reflection on the person, it's a reflection on the opinion and the experience it's based on. You still get to vote in political elections, just nobody's interested in what you think about non-volatile memory.
Memory works like this: it stores 1's and 0's. There is nothing else in binary.
If the pattern of 1's and 0's in 2 files is identical, the files are identical. They SOUND identical when played back in identical circumstances. Otherwise it wouldn't be called memory, it'd be called forgettery. You'd put things in there and come back and they wouldn't be the same. After a while you'd stop putting things in there, because experience would tell you that there was no point, just like if you had a piece of music on an LP disk and it changed while your back was turned. Beethoven when you recorded it, Mozart when you listened to it again, who knows what the next time, Vivaldi?
This isn't even electronics, it's just plain common sense.
A man goes into a butchers shop. He says 'I'd like a sheep's head please'. The butcher says 'Would you like a mono sheep's head or a stereo sheep's head?' 'Oh', says the customer, 'I was really hoping for an audiophile sheep's head.' 'OK' says the butcher, taking a sheep's head from the pile and throwing it to his assistant, he says, 'Scrape the brains out of that, will you, please.'
w
Electronics is not a democracy
I shouldn't have to point this out.
Electronics doesn't work the way you vote for it to work.
Electronics doesn't work the way the guy who argues best says it works.
Electronics works its own sweet way.
It doesn't work the way your intuition says it works.
It doesn't work the way you think it ought to work.
It doesn't work the way you'd like it to work.
It works the way it works.
In this context, some opinions are valuable. Some opinions are valuelesss.
A person with a valueless opinion today can have a valuable one tomorrow.
All that is required to make an opinion valuable is that it should be informed with respect to the way electronics works.
This is not a reflection on the person, it's a reflection on the opinion and the experience it's based on. You still get to vote in political elections, just nobody's interested in what you think about non-volatile memory.
Memory works like this: it stores 1's and 0's. There is nothing else in binary.
If the pattern of 1's and 0's in 2 files is identical, the files are identical. They SOUND identical when played back in identical circumstances. Otherwise it wouldn't be called memory, it'd be called forgettery. You'd put things in there and come back and they wouldn't be the same. After a while you'd stop putting things in there, because experience would tell you that there was no point, just like if you had a piece of music on an LP disk and it changed while your back was turned. Beethoven when you recorded it, Mozart when you listened to it again, who knows what the next time, Vivaldi?
This isn't even electronics, it's just plain common sense.
A man goes into a butchers shop. He says 'I'd like a sheep's head please'. The butcher says 'Would you like a mono sheep's head or a stereo sheep's head?' 'Oh', says the customer, 'I was really hoping for an audiophile sheep's head.' 'OK' says the butcher, taking a sheep's head from the pile and throwing it to his assistant, he says, 'Scrape the brains out of that, will you, please.'
w
Right error, wrong spot.
Its not windows or linux or mac.
If you go pick up a hard drive and turn it over, you'll spot a CPU and some flash chips. These flash chips store the hard drive's own tiny operating system--the very miniature bit of software that operates the hard drive's own miniature CPU. This is the location.
An addition place for error may (and probably does) occur upon cable error and that's the controller chips of the motherboard. The motherboard has its own tiny on-board operating system called the BIOS. You see it come on-screen before windows/linux/mac ever starts up. One thing about BIOS software is that this stuff is never perfect. The goal is "saleable" not perfection, and there are many errors. Of the available selection, Nvidia powered motherboards are most likely to make error at the SATA port, although the problem is common to all makes.
On one end you have the hard drive's own tiny operating system sending your data down the cheapest wire possible to your motherboard's chipset on the other end.
So, the only Windows/Linux/Mac related piece of software that could be theoretically included as a hardware level piece would be the driver software for the motherboard chipset, specifically the IDE and SATA driver software. Although it doesn't perform error check function, that driver software is historically prone to causing errors. However, the hard drive's own smart system log will report to you of any severe errors caused by cable, motherboard, and driver software--just use a SMART system utility to read its logs and see if there's anything with a high error count.
Hi Greg
I wish you hadn't posted that.I did not wish to involve you in this argument, as I consider you a friend.
I will now point out that the previous 2 listening sessions that you were present, the other 3 people claim to hear these differences.
You are the odd one out.
Regards
Alex
P.S.
Hopefully, we are still friends !
Of course we are.
A minor difference of opinion is not important in the scheme of things.
regards
You have completely missed the point. Sorry if it was not more clear. It was a story about a fundamental lack of understanding of technology. Not about beliefs, perceptions, whatever. That is the basic problem in this thread.
Well I go away for half a day and look what happens.
This may be in the "Digital Source" section, but it is just like a broken record! Around and around it goes, always skipping back to the same old worn groove.
It is pointless to continue this argument, as all the arguments on both sides have been made. And made over and over, very well in many cases. So there is nothing new to say. There is a fundamental lack of understanding of the technology on one side of the argument. This seems important to one side, not important to the other. As long as those positions continue, the broken record will be stuck in the same groove.
It is time for the moderation team to review this thread and perhaps close it. It's a stalemate. A poor, sad, broken record.
This may be in the "Digital Source" section, but it is just like a broken record! Around and around it goes, always skipping back to the same old worn groove.
It is pointless to continue this argument, as all the arguments on both sides have been made. And made over and over, very well in many cases. So there is nothing new to say. There is a fundamental lack of understanding of the technology on one side of the argument. This seems important to one side, not important to the other. As long as those positions continue, the broken record will be stuck in the same groove.
It is time for the moderation team to review this thread and perhaps close it. It's a stalemate. A poor, sad, broken record.
I can only wonder how long a computer would run if it made enough errors to change an audio file while it's playing it back. I wouldn't have time to get my stopwatch.
If you think the Blue Screen of Death was bad, computers would crash while doing the power-on self test...
I know, I'll sell "audio quality" DRAM and "audio quality SMPS's that use "audio quality" capacitors...
I know what I'll do! Oops, I'm too late...
If you think the Blue Screen of Death was bad, computers would crash while doing the power-on self test...
I know, I'll sell "audio quality" DRAM and "audio quality SMPS's that use "audio quality" capacitors...
I know what I'll do! Oops, I'm too late...
Why don't you post your assertion that the quality of the PSU in the digital area makes no difference to the sound, in the Twisted Pear threads, and see what kind of responses you get ?
That thread is where MANY DIYAudio members even go to the extent of using numerous transformers, shunt regulators such as that designed by the chief moderator, and especially the very expensive Paul Hynes regulators.Obviously all those guys have no basic understanding either, and are suffering from Placebo effects!
P.S.
I agree, close the thread it is going around in circles with neither side even coming remotely close to any kind of agreements in this area. Not even that different CD/DVD players can sound different as Transports, or that ripped CD don't all necessarily sound the same when using different writers and CD/DVD media.
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Do they? And by that I mean, emperically and quantifiably. Not potentially or apparently.
You see Sandy, you basically don't understand what is going on here if the Twisted Pear threads are your reference. Exactly my point. They are NOT the same thing. If you don't understand that, OK. But please give those who do understand it some credit.
Please see my post post #346 in this thread. Especially point #1.
Post #272 may also be of help.
Wheat, chaff - separate the two.
Forest, trees. Don't let one block the view of the other.
.
Please see my post post #346 in this thread. Especially point #1.
Post #272 may also be of help.
Wheat, chaff - separate the two.
Forest, trees. Don't let one block the view of the other.
.
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