Please don't mention gauge invariance, broken symmetry etc. Some of our friends on here might think that explains the claimed phenomenon!
One of the nice things about real physics is that it is much weirder/more wonderful than anything the 'social construct' people can dream up, but they will never enjoy the things we have glimpsed in labs or equations.
One of the nice things about real physics is that it is much weirder/more wonderful than anything the 'social construct' people can dream up, but they will never enjoy the things we have glimpsed in labs or equations.
I live in Sydney. I would be happy to help run a listening test concerning HDD vs. USB for anyone who is interested.
We need someone who would be open to hosting it for themselves and others at their home (Sydney metro only).
I would suggest the protocol be:
We need someone who would be open to hosting it for themselves and others at their home (Sydney metro only).
I would suggest the protocol be:
- HDD version of music.
- USB version of music.
- files created as per the earlier claims made on this thread.
- listeners can listen to the HDD version as much as they like.
- listeners can listen to the USB version as much as they like.
- out of sight of the listeners, I will then play either the USB or HDD version.
- Listeners will then mark whether they are listening to the USB version or the HDD version.
- The sequence of switching will be based on a random number sequence.
- At the end of 16 listens, we total up the results.
Who are these dreadfully impoverished 'social contruct people' ? Does Lee Smolin qualify, to offer just one example?
Does AIFF files degrade when moved about
Hi sandyk,
Thanks for sharing you discoveries.
Have you noticed if AIFF files degrade when moved about ?
What if the slightly degraded WAV file is recopied to a USB flash drive (with a low noise PS), would that in any way help restore the quality of the file ?
Thanks
Hi sandyk,
Thanks for sharing you discoveries.
Have you noticed if AIFF files degrade when moved about ?
What if the slightly degraded WAV file is recopied to a USB flash drive (with a low noise PS), would that in any way help restore the quality of the file ?
Thanks
Carz, files are moved about between computers every day with no degrading, if you copy a WAV from one disc to the next the operating system will use the checksums to monitor the copy and it will be exactly the same, otherwise all this (the internet, data storage etc) would not exist. this is one major audiophile fantasy, and a load of ****.
Where does this minor degrading happen, how can it happen, on other threads we have put it down to the dark bits. I copy numerous files from one system to another, via the internet, memory stick, hard drive, none have changed and none have suffered any minor degradation, if the file copies correctly (and the checksum will confirm this) it is an IDENTICAL copy of the original file, no difference whats so ever. Along with power supply noise being recorded with the data, this ranks amongst the craziest audiophile theory's and time would be better spent looking at real problems.
Where does this minor degrading happen, how can it happen, on other threads we have put it down to the dark bits. I copy numerous files from one system to another, via the internet, memory stick, hard drive, none have changed and none have suffered any minor degradation, if the file copies correctly (and the checksum will confirm this) it is an IDENTICAL copy of the original file, no difference whats so ever. Along with power supply noise being recorded with the data, this ranks amongst the craziest audiophile theory's and time would be better spent looking at real problems.
Everything in the digital domain is in a physical format. It might be charge on a little capacitor, or a current present or missing, or a magnetic domain - all physical.TerryO said:
As marce says, a file is a file. IT (and almost everything else) would collapse if data was corrupted in the way that some audiophiles allege. They clearly don't realise how impossible is their silly claim. It is almost like claiming that they put an apple in a bag, wave it around their head, then it turns into an orange - not possible.
A few years back I explained what seemed to be the problem. Most of these contentions are now recognized and some steps have been taken. Because of the contenous nature of the subject and/or some of the people involved, several of us have just stopped posting here.
Have a great day.
Best Regards,
TerryO
I would love to know where these contentions are recognized and steps taken to resolve them, as the only place I hear this is on Audio sites, the rest of the world that uses digital doesn't seem to have these problems, that I find rather curious.
Discounting system noise, which may affect playback if you use a computer as a source and don't use galvanic isolation, I would still like to know how any degrading of the sound could be stored with the digital data that represents a piece of music.
As I have said I cant understand why any other field of electronics dose not suffer this problem, or engineers working in that those fields have any concerns regarding low leve degradation of digital data as it is copied.
Discounting system noise, which may affect playback if you use a computer as a source and don't use galvanic isolation, I would still like to know how any degrading of the sound could be stored with the digital data that represents a piece of music.
As I have said I cant understand why any other field of electronics dose not suffer this problem, or engineers working in that those fields have any concerns regarding low leve degradation of digital data as it is copied.
I will have to look for the explanation, as the last thread where this was discussed, the goalpost changed from the noise being somehow recorded with the file (!) to the difference being caused by he different noise signatures the various playback systems (i.e. HDD, SDD CD). I do believe that this is a fundamental flaw in the reasoning of some Audiophiles and it does not do the cause of improving replay systems any good, as, as far as I can see with no information to support the thesis (or even basic principles) it is chasing a red herring.
Yes, when pressed they always seem to fall back to blaming the playback system - which is of course possible but not what they originally claimed.
The sad thing is that if people who believe they can hear this problem would only learn something about how computer hardware and software work instead of displaying their gross ignorance by asserting the impossible they could help track down the cause - probably poor mixed-signal design in the CD player.
The sad thing is that if people who believe they can hear this problem would only learn something about how computer hardware and software work instead of displaying their gross ignorance by asserting the impossible they could help track down the cause - probably poor mixed-signal design in the CD player.
Computer Audio deep thinking, not scoffing, required: different sounding rips - General HIFI Discussion - HIFICRITIC FORUM - HIFICRITIC FORUM : hi fi audio systems forum
http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/pc-based/191241-modern-pc-dac-vs-audiophile-dac-9.html
Two previous discussions, still no thesis about what is stored with the digital data to produce the differences, even when the files are BIT IDENTICAL...
http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/pc-based/191241-modern-pc-dac-vs-audiophile-dac-9.html
Two previous discussions, still no thesis about what is stored with the digital data to produce the differences, even when the files are BIT IDENTICAL...
I read a few posts in those threads, and ... maybe it's my long-term knowledge of digital electronics, math, familiarity with CRC (and we don't even need CRCs for this purpose, any modern computer can bit-compare gigabyte+ files while we get coffee), but reading some of those, I'm reaching for the brain bleach.
I can sort-of see where people have blind spots due to their lack of knowledge in areas outside their immediate expertise, but I've always found myself wanting to LEARN about things in an attempt to get rational explanations for various phenomena. But apparently not everyone is that way...
I was involved with a cable thread on another forum - some guy was doing listening tests, comparing a few commercial speaker cables and describing what he was hearing. He said something like "I know what I'm doing, my day job is as a scientist." I asked about electrical parameters, resistance, inductance, capacitance, and he admitted to having no electrical knowledge nor instruments to measure these. If I did some investigations in HIS area of expertise without at least learning some basics in HIS field, he would surely have been greatly offended, and dismissed anything I tried to say.
I can sort-of see where people have blind spots due to their lack of knowledge in areas outside their immediate expertise, but I've always found myself wanting to LEARN about things in an attempt to get rational explanations for various phenomena. But apparently not everyone is that way...
I was involved with a cable thread on another forum - some guy was doing listening tests, comparing a few commercial speaker cables and describing what he was hearing. He said something like "I know what I'm doing, my day job is as a scientist." I asked about electrical parameters, resistance, inductance, capacitance, and he admitted to having no electrical knowledge nor instruments to measure these. If I did some investigations in HIS area of expertise without at least learning some basics in HIS field, he would surely have been greatly offended, and dismissed anything I tried to say.
I have as said been discussing this for years and I am still waiting for the mechanism of how this stuff happens to be explained...usually the believers move on to some hidden forum somewhere where there weird beliefs are applauded as the next big discovery in Audio, but occasionally come back to pass on there lack of knowledge, and every time we ask the same questions, repeat the same stuff about signals being buffered etc and still no explanation, and I have looked through past threads.
Part#1 Data errors and your defense.
On a dual checksum system you're look at, basically, first checksum good to 99%, or a dual good to 99.9%, thus even the most elementary systems have only 0.1% room for error. This does not guarantee the error, but rather that 0.1% error is worst case situation. More advanced systems have some ability to either repair or pad, thus further reducing that 0.1% possibility.
So,
That very tiny error rate may occur each time the file is copied on malfunctioning defective media and/or a very poorly functioning computer. Else, no error.
What to do:
Back up your music collection on made-for-archive CD media written by a real CD writer at speeds no higher than 16X. If you have an older and really cranky CD player that rejects most efforts, available for quality control purposes, try finding out which music CD writing method it can play without skipping, and then write your archive data CD's in the same way. Disc at once, written and closed in one fell swoop, and an ISO+JOLIET writing is handy as well, since they are very easy to read.
I personally have an older Sony CD writer in an external box and a stack of archive CD's just for this backup purpose. Also, Amazon's new Cloud service is remarkably good on long term data retention albeit the retrieval task can be annoyingly difficult and eventually doable, without repeating the purchase price.
What not to do:
Dvd recordable data is generally "disposable" and error prone, so unless the discs are manually scanned for accuracy, the data correction may not be assured as good enough to correct for all errors, thus allowing blips and other noise in MP3 data. While DVD blanks may be used for convenient music replay, that sort of disc is not guaranteed suitable for backup duties. Basically, avoid the clumsy things. And blu-ray is biodegradable, which is a bit worse albeit the huge storage space is a convenience for playback-only duties.
And then,
After you have well written Data CD backups, with a CD writer on archive grade discs, you'll need an additional set of backup discs stored in a different location, so that data is not lost in case of fire, theft, etc. . . Given a thorough backup and well functioning equipment, there Should be no errors.
But all of technology does have errors.
The very best equipment merely has smaller errors.
The worst mistake is not to plan for it.
I fear for those who assume errors don't exist, because they're going to lose their data sooner or later, unless they have backups.
On a dual checksum system you're look at, basically, first checksum good to 99%, or a dual good to 99.9%, thus even the most elementary systems have only 0.1% room for error. This does not guarantee the error, but rather that 0.1% error is worst case situation. More advanced systems have some ability to either repair or pad, thus further reducing that 0.1% possibility.
So,
That very tiny error rate may occur each time the file is copied on malfunctioning defective media and/or a very poorly functioning computer. Else, no error.
What to do:
Back up your music collection on made-for-archive CD media written by a real CD writer at speeds no higher than 16X. If you have an older and really cranky CD player that rejects most efforts, available for quality control purposes, try finding out which music CD writing method it can play without skipping, and then write your archive data CD's in the same way. Disc at once, written and closed in one fell swoop, and an ISO+JOLIET writing is handy as well, since they are very easy to read.
I personally have an older Sony CD writer in an external box and a stack of archive CD's just for this backup purpose. Also, Amazon's new Cloud service is remarkably good on long term data retention albeit the retrieval task can be annoyingly difficult and eventually doable, without repeating the purchase price.
What not to do:
Dvd recordable data is generally "disposable" and error prone, so unless the discs are manually scanned for accuracy, the data correction may not be assured as good enough to correct for all errors, thus allowing blips and other noise in MP3 data. While DVD blanks may be used for convenient music replay, that sort of disc is not guaranteed suitable for backup duties. Basically, avoid the clumsy things. And blu-ray is biodegradable, which is a bit worse albeit the huge storage space is a convenience for playback-only duties.
And then,
After you have well written Data CD backups, with a CD writer on archive grade discs, you'll need an additional set of backup discs stored in a different location, so that data is not lost in case of fire, theft, etc. . . Given a thorough backup and well functioning equipment, there Should be no errors.
But all of technology does have errors.
The very best equipment merely has smaller errors.
The worst mistake is not to plan for it.
I fear for those who assume errors don't exist, because they're going to lose their data sooner or later, unless they have backups.
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