listening room dimensions and speaker placement seem to be low on
the list when considering "the best sound"
Wilson Audio makes a big deal about sending out a specialist from the
dealer - just to make sure the speakers are set up right.
Speaker placement adjustments - down to a 1/4 of an inch!
...what do they do when the buyer says - "those speakers have to go
right here, between the fancy furniture - and in the corner"...
the list when considering "the best sound"
Wilson Audio makes a big deal about sending out a specialist from the
dealer - just to make sure the speakers are set up right.
Speaker placement adjustments - down to a 1/4 of an inch!
...what do they do when the buyer says - "those speakers have to go
right here, between the fancy furniture - and in the corner"...
Babowana said:
Actually my policy is to not advise people how to modify our
commercial products. I have too many examples of guys (many
claiming technical credentials) working on these things and
screwing them up. Then they complain to the factory about it,
or worse, they often sell the product used to some poor guy and
we end up having to listen to a lot of arguments and whining and
then fix it.
mert said:
my speakers 4 ohm, 86-88 db, but may drop to 3.2 ohm. It seems around -45db, amp will switch to Class AB. However, recording quality of the Sacd/CD may vary: with some cd, you may make a critical listening -45db, amp will be still in Class A mode. With some cd's speaker require more power, matterfact , you make listening in Class AB mode.
I always tried to correct the things with powerconditioning and cables, using very reliable source as Accuphase, ....However, I reached theoritical limit. Recently, I purchased Acrolink 7N-PC7100 mexcel powercord(US retail 2400usd) for X250.5. This was the last thing that could be made on an amplifier which retails for 7500usd.
Now it is turn for internal modifications!
Wrong.
Talk to RPG about your room.
You could of course buy one of the new Pass Lab preamps when they are released, consider the X600.5 and get a better Cd player like http://www.emmlabs.com/
Nelson Pass said:
I've told this story already in several contexts, so I'll only give an abbreviated version of it here:
I set out to buy a Hafler DH-200 for the chassis, heatsinks, and transformer. Since I didn't care whether the thing worked, I saved money by buying a dead one on eBay. (This is where I edit severely to shorten the story.) The end result was that I bought four or five 'dead' Haflers before I got one that was truly dead. All the others had been butchered by people who thought they were 'improving' the circuit, thereby rendering a previously working amp unworkable.
I've known a number of people who did modifications on their equipment. I ended up going in behind nearly half of the modifications to clean things up. That's not to say that there aren't people who can do competent modifications--there just aren't as many of them as you might think given the number of modified pieces you see.
If you are determined to modify something, sit and think for a while before going forward with the modification. Will the components fit into the available space? How much will the parts cost? Where will you get them? Do you have a backup plan in case something goes wrong? Can you restore the modified piece to stock condition? If you deal with the questions before you start, things will go more smoothly.
One final piece of advice:
Grey's Law #122
The chances of a successful modification are inversely proportional to the enthusiasm of the modifier.
Grey
Peter Daniel said:
While I see here a lot of talk about pressure levels, class A and B, power cords, price tags, you never mentiond what particular aspects of sound reproduction you'd like to improve. Without clearly defined objectives, modifications for a sake of modification have no sense at all.
And even if you know what you'd like to improve, it takes a lot experimentation, comparisons, listening tests to make a mod worthwile. It's almost like building brand new amplifier
If I modify a piece of equipment, it ususally takes 4 months or so of constant listening and changes. And there is some equipment I wouldn't touch, because modifications will certainly affect the resale value or simply are not worth the time invested.
moe29 said:
macka said:
Thanks for inputs, it seems some people advise on speaker placement, Nelson Pass insist on not to modify commercial Pass products, some folks say to get a new Pass Preamp and X600.5........In the end nobody is wrong. The simple fact is I am a ordinary person and I live in a ''normal'' house and don't have dedicated listening room. I don't have a very large living room and will not let my gear dominate my casual living in my home. I know the ideal distance between Wilson speakers but ideal distances and placements will make my livingroom uncomfortable for me, wife and kid. I can't buy X600.5 not because of price but simply don't have required space for running two giant mono amplifiers together. I have tested Boulder 1060, 850 and Accuphase A-45. None of them could offer what I am looking for. (Accuphase A-45 has potential if you get second one and bridge for mono configuration) I think I have to wait untill Pass labs makes a amp which is stronger than XA30.5
Regards
Mert
mert said:
http://www.passlabs.com/products.htm
You have your choice of the XA200.5, XA160.5, XA100.5, or XA60.5. Yes they're monoblocks, but surely the XA60.5 isn't too big for your room.
Grey
It must be the low dollar...
I consider myself a 'normal' person (at least in economic terms) and I live in the US. I also have a 'normal' wife and 'normal' kids. I certainly could not afford a PL 250.5.
If I could, I wouldn't dare touching the inner workings of the amp.
Knowing NP the amp has been measured with an AP and tuned for lowest distortion. Anything you did in your basement (if you have one) would end up degrading the performance of the amp.
JM 2c
I consider myself a 'normal' person (at least in economic terms) and I live in the US. I also have a 'normal' wife and 'normal' kids. I certainly could not afford a PL 250.5.
If I could, I wouldn't dare touching the inner workings of the amp.
Knowing NP the amp has been measured with an AP and tuned for lowest distortion. Anything you did in your basement (if you have one) would end up degrading the performance of the amp.
JM 2c
Hi grataku.
Well put.
Mert,
I have ready your story on a web page else where and I am surprised you have taken to posting here in this manner!
We would like to help but you still have not defined what you are missing?
The X250.5 is as much about what can go in that particular chassis frame as anything thing else in so far a power output and class drive levels are concerned. Fooling around inside the X250.5 is not the answer. There are no input coupling caps. The design highly refined and there is nothing to improve.
I would like to add I was a reading 6moons or one of those online magazines recently and the reviewer said straight up he would rather hear mid hi fi in a hi end room than hi end hifi in a low end room.
To a point I have to agree without going to extremes.
It makes no sense at all to rely purley on snake oil marketing or chopping and changing models when more than half of what you hear is your room's reverberant sound as distinct from the direct radiated sound from the loudspeaker.
By compensation for the shortcomings of your room with more snake oil treatments or another tonal blend of another piece of gear will never bring home audio nirvana.
I have a X250.5 on a modest listening room for more than 12 months now. I loved it right out of the box.
By carefully assessing the best loudspeaker location and some carefully placed room treatments the real potential of the X250.5 is just starting to unfold and I am hearing things I never heard before.
Today firms like RPG have very decorative treatments that won't turn your room into a technical zone or get you a divorce.
Have you looked at ugrading your loudspeakers. Perhaps there is a better design to suit your listening tastes and room.
By way of example I recently upgraded my loudspeakers to current soa technology by installing beryllium hi frequency drivers.
More recently I purchased a very good parametric equaliser, the Meyer CP-10 and have been able to modify certain audible room issues that were not practical with room treatments.
Now I spend more time listening to my system than ever before
I suppose my message is about getting the best out of what you have and sometimes that means moving outside your own mind set and making change.
Good luck with your listening.
iMac
Well put.
Mert,
I have ready your story on a web page else where and I am surprised you have taken to posting here in this manner!
We would like to help but you still have not defined what you are missing?
The X250.5 is as much about what can go in that particular chassis frame as anything thing else in so far a power output and class drive levels are concerned. Fooling around inside the X250.5 is not the answer. There are no input coupling caps. The design highly refined and there is nothing to improve.
I would like to add I was a reading 6moons or one of those online magazines recently and the reviewer said straight up he would rather hear mid hi fi in a hi end room than hi end hifi in a low end room.
To a point I have to agree without going to extremes.
It makes no sense at all to rely purley on snake oil marketing or chopping and changing models when more than half of what you hear is your room's reverberant sound as distinct from the direct radiated sound from the loudspeaker.
By compensation for the shortcomings of your room with more snake oil treatments or another tonal blend of another piece of gear will never bring home audio nirvana.
I have a X250.5 on a modest listening room for more than 12 months now. I loved it right out of the box.
By carefully assessing the best loudspeaker location and some carefully placed room treatments the real potential of the X250.5 is just starting to unfold and I am hearing things I never heard before.
Today firms like RPG have very decorative treatments that won't turn your room into a technical zone or get you a divorce.
Have you looked at ugrading your loudspeakers. Perhaps there is a better design to suit your listening tastes and room.
By way of example I recently upgraded my loudspeakers to current soa technology by installing beryllium hi frequency drivers.
More recently I purchased a very good parametric equaliser, the Meyer CP-10 and have been able to modify certain audible room issues that were not practical with room treatments.
Now I spend more time listening to my system than ever before
I suppose my message is about getting the best out of what you have and sometimes that means moving outside your own mind set and making change.
Good luck with your listening.
iMac
I respect all of the suggestions here. Certainly, this kind of forum (and most other) is for helping fellow audiophiles and DIYers, after all. I do, also, respect completely Pass Lab.’s commercial views and advise you to follow.
IMHO:
IF you have to tweak the unit, this is my suggestion and it should improve the sound. Not degrade it as others have already pointed out. I agree, of course, to have Wilson people set up the speakers, buy new equipment (for better or worse), buy a new house with appropriate listening room, etc. as others have suggested. However, I take it as you’ll not do any of those and stick with what you have, except the X250.5.
From my experience, increase the reserve capacitance of the output power supply will improve the sound. The degree of improvement varies on system resolution as a whole. Yours is certainly up there. This holds true for front end PS, but less effective since they’re almost always well regulated. It should give more effortless highs, better control for the lows and everything else in between. You’ll be surprised by the improvement compare internal wiring, the IC and/or power cord change.
So why manufacturers don’t do this, install very large amount of capacitance in their products/amps ? COST ! Beside the chassis itself, capacitors (or transformers) are next inline, especially, 250W/ch 8ohm. At this rating, the voltage rails are approx. plus/minus >60V. This leads the designers to select 80V or 100V caps. These things are expensive at high capacitance values.
However, take a look at these photos I collected online.
It appears the X250.5 is special (or odd) compare to the X350.5 and X150.5. (assuming these photos are correct. You can certainly verify for your self). The packaging is different compare to the other 2 (PCB mount caps, unless the large, screw-mount caps are under the output PCBs). If this is the scenario, the only way to go is up (higher value capacitors with same diameter footprint). And, de-soldering/soldering skill required. If it’s the X350.5/X150.5, it’s a walk in the park for any experienced DIYer to replace the screw-mounted caps.
Caution: Usually, Pass Lab. uses a varistor to limit in-rush current during start-up. If it is the case, I suggest, as a guess, new total capacitance does not exceed 150-200% of the original. Certainly, higher in-rush rating varistor can be in place, but requires more digging. While you’re at it, by pass the rails with some high quality film caps in the order of sub micros. Sonic Craft’s THETA (here, in the Sates, you can get them at PartExpress, but no idea where on your side of the world) is what I’m familiar with and use which are excellent and does not empty your wallet like other exotic brands.
Caution: Now a day, caps are also counterfeited by Chinese manufacturers. Especially, Electro. Caps. One way to be sure is getting them from reputable vendors (Newark, Digikey, Mousers,… RS Component, Farnell, ELFA are some others on your side).
Caution: This mod will also increase (I think) the rail voltages a little (1-2V perhaps, depends on the final total capacitance values). As I’m not familiar with Pass’s topologies (and never able to afford their products beside the ALEPH P I had years ago), do other experts care to comment on effects of this increase ? My best guess would be minimal. Perhaps, it will raise the heatsink temp. by sub degree.
Caution FINAL: So far you’re advised to not mod the unit. I just suggest IF you’re absolute must. Certainly Pass Lab. will not, for sure, honor such actions. For having said that, be extremely careful when putting the unit back together since, from the look of it, you have to almost dissemble the thing to get to the caps’ PCB. Including unscrew those TO3P transistors on the heatsink. And, tons of cables/wires disconnect.
My guess, you have to spend a few hundred bucks for the caps (and tons of hours) for this mod. At the end, my gut tells me, it pays a lot more compare to the exotic power cable you installed. (BTW, I noticed from the photo, Pass Lab. Has already installed an AC filter to clean up the gabbage coming in. Did you notice any (noticeable) difference with this cord ? Just curious.)
Good Luck.
(PS. If I own the thing, I'll reduce the rails and put the thing deeper into class A. Whoever might concern, this will never happen since I'm almost never able to afford them. It's not the power rating you should care too much. It's how much torque the thing can produce, cleanly.)
IMHO:
IF you have to tweak the unit, this is my suggestion and it should improve the sound. Not degrade it as others have already pointed out. I agree, of course, to have Wilson people set up the speakers, buy new equipment (for better or worse), buy a new house with appropriate listening room, etc. as others have suggested. However, I take it as you’ll not do any of those and stick with what you have, except the X250.5.
From my experience, increase the reserve capacitance of the output power supply will improve the sound. The degree of improvement varies on system resolution as a whole. Yours is certainly up there. This holds true for front end PS, but less effective since they’re almost always well regulated. It should give more effortless highs, better control for the lows and everything else in between. You’ll be surprised by the improvement compare internal wiring, the IC and/or power cord change.
So why manufacturers don’t do this, install very large amount of capacitance in their products/amps ? COST ! Beside the chassis itself, capacitors (or transformers) are next inline, especially, 250W/ch 8ohm. At this rating, the voltage rails are approx. plus/minus >60V. This leads the designers to select 80V or 100V caps. These things are expensive at high capacitance values.
However, take a look at these photos I collected online.
It appears the X250.5 is special (or odd) compare to the X350.5 and X150.5. (assuming these photos are correct. You can certainly verify for your self). The packaging is different compare to the other 2 (PCB mount caps, unless the large, screw-mount caps are under the output PCBs). If this is the scenario, the only way to go is up (higher value capacitors with same diameter footprint). And, de-soldering/soldering skill required. If it’s the X350.5/X150.5, it’s a walk in the park for any experienced DIYer to replace the screw-mounted caps.
Caution: Usually, Pass Lab. uses a varistor to limit in-rush current during start-up. If it is the case, I suggest, as a guess, new total capacitance does not exceed 150-200% of the original. Certainly, higher in-rush rating varistor can be in place, but requires more digging. While you’re at it, by pass the rails with some high quality film caps in the order of sub micros. Sonic Craft’s THETA (here, in the Sates, you can get them at PartExpress, but no idea where on your side of the world) is what I’m familiar with and use which are excellent and does not empty your wallet like other exotic brands.
Caution: Now a day, caps are also counterfeited by Chinese manufacturers. Especially, Electro. Caps. One way to be sure is getting them from reputable vendors (Newark, Digikey, Mousers,… RS Component, Farnell, ELFA are some others on your side).
Caution: This mod will also increase (I think) the rail voltages a little (1-2V perhaps, depends on the final total capacitance values). As I’m not familiar with Pass’s topologies (and never able to afford their products beside the ALEPH P I had years ago), do other experts care to comment on effects of this increase ? My best guess would be minimal. Perhaps, it will raise the heatsink temp. by sub degree.
Caution FINAL: So far you’re advised to not mod the unit. I just suggest IF you’re absolute must. Certainly Pass Lab. will not, for sure, honor such actions. For having said that, be extremely careful when putting the unit back together since, from the look of it, you have to almost dissemble the thing to get to the caps’ PCB. Including unscrew those TO3P transistors on the heatsink. And, tons of cables/wires disconnect.
My guess, you have to spend a few hundred bucks for the caps (and tons of hours) for this mod. At the end, my gut tells me, it pays a lot more compare to the exotic power cable you installed. (BTW, I noticed from the photo, Pass Lab. Has already installed an AC filter to clean up the gabbage coming in. Did you notice any (noticeable) difference with this cord ? Just curious.)
Good Luck.
(PS. If I own the thing, I'll reduce the rails and put the thing deeper into class A. Whoever might concern, this will never happen since I'm almost never able to afford them. It's not the power rating you should care too much. It's how much torque the thing can produce, cleanly.)
Attachments
(To follow my post above)
IF you still go ahead with this, I suggest to use Panasonic or United-Chem due to availability of larger capacitance at higher voltage ratings. Naturely, the new caps' rating should equal or exceed the original caps'voltage rating. (You sounded experinced, but to be sure I cover all grounds I can think of. If this last piece of information is useful to you. I honestly advise you not to do it for an apparent reason !).
IF you still go ahead with this, I suggest to use Panasonic or United-Chem due to availability of larger capacitance at higher voltage ratings. Naturely, the new caps' rating should equal or exceed the original caps'voltage rating. (You sounded experinced, but to be sure I cover all grounds I can think of. If this last piece of information is useful to you. I honestly advise you not to do it for an apparent reason !).
Yep, and that fact will kick alll our as### if you dont manage to get it back on trackgrataku said:
Very agreeable post indeed, as Macka points out. The only thing that bothers me, looking at those otherwise very nice pic's of Pass Labs amp's, is that they dont have big Rifa caps in the psu steenoe said:
Yep, and that fact will kick alll our as### if you dont manage to get it back on track
I like to experiment with these things for my amp/preamp (none Pass product, of course. My own designs, actually).
Any particular series of RIFA you might be willing to share ?
diy_Qui said:
Yep
PEH169 if you can find them! Otherwise the PEH200 series makes a great substitute! The 169 is the preferred kind and (ofcourse!) difficult to find. It's like all the good audio stuff, suffers a boring death! Look at EC8020, Toshiba J-FET's, Rifa caps, TDA1541 double crown
.... etc etc etc....Here is a pic of my Aleph-X psu..... Dont think, that I think, that I am better than NP!!! Ever.... Nonetheless, here you are....
Attachments
Dude,
Those caps are fine and they are strategically placed where they need to be. While there is nothing small about 10,000 uf, multiple use of these at the high speed rectifiers and on the board right next to the output stage is brilliant. The transformer is a whopper and a Plitron no less!
The thing I love about this amp is its capacity to express the attitude of musicians.
Its not just the natural tonality but just how they hit the notes.
At least that is what I told Nelson when I got it.
He's not the one and only for nothing!
iMac
Those caps are fine and they are strategically placed where they need to be. While there is nothing small about 10,000 uf, multiple use of these at the high speed rectifiers and on the board right next to the output stage is brilliant. The transformer is a whopper and a Plitron no less!
The thing I love about this amp is its capacity to express the attitude of musicians.
Its not just the natural tonality but just how they hit the notes.
At least that is what I told Nelson when I got it.
He's not the one and only for nothing!
iMac
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