Yes, I have wired speaker cable directly to the point to point wired crossover, and used the same cable to wire to the drivers......be certain to keep one cable direction throughout.
This worked spectacularly well.
Wire dielectrics and capacitor dielectrics can impart signatures.
Dan.
This worked spectacularly well.
Wire dielectrics and capacitor dielectrics can impart signatures.
Dan.
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The idea is not new, of course. As the old saying goes "there is nothing new under the sun." But there is the counter, "nothing so new as the oldest you can find".
I too have done this completely in the past. Once you get your system to where you want it; why not remove those connectors?
AS Fulton opined - "one inch of bad wire can ruin your system". Well, ruin is a little strong but once you hear what your system can do without connectors, or in my case, most connectors, you do not mind the inconvenience.
Once the system is DONE (this can and does actually happen a few times in every audio kook's life) you do this.
I have found you can get most of the good effect by having the amplifier output leads soldered to the speaker wires and this same wire soldered to the driver directly. I am using multiple amps so this is done for each speaker amp combo. I have one amp (mid bass) that uses those SPEAKON things and have yet to go inside and liberate those wires. One of these days ... For low level use a connector at one end only and have the interconnect soldered direct on the other.
Another important place is for the tonearm wire to make one continuous run from the cartridge to the phono amp. You will have to rewire your tonearm to do this. Many years ago i attempted to solder the wires to the cartridge. You only have to try this once to know there is a limitation to this. Don't bother trying.
The only connector I have found that is almost benign is the DELTRONICS XLRs. You take the insert out of the housing which you then throw away unless you have lots of room for useless bits of metal. My system is not balanced so i use only two of the connections (of course). These are silver plated barrels and are as light as the EICHMANN RCAs but make a connection infinitely more secure. MOUSER sells these. Wish I could just get the inserts ...
So this is not for the lazy or for those who are constantly putting different components into their systems. But if you are working with an architecture you have decided is the way and are not playing with different components but trying to get he most out of what you have this is worth the effort.
I am almost sure that it was Enid Lumley who got me to try this decades ago. She was determined to get the most out of what she had. She wrote a column in THE ABSOLUTE SOUND and then moved over to IAR. AS you can imagine she was laughed at by many people who are likely incorporating her ideas into their systems today if they are still listening to music at all.
There is no such thing as a transparent connector. No matter how much money you spend on the things and you can spend silly money on them.
My favorites have to be those that are heavy. Could there be anything more wrong than a massive connector? No.
So AirBetweenTheNotes I agree with you and glad you brought this up. That is the frontier: the space between the notes and this approach lets you hear more of that.
I too have done this completely in the past. Once you get your system to where you want it; why not remove those connectors?
AS Fulton opined - "one inch of bad wire can ruin your system". Well, ruin is a little strong but once you hear what your system can do without connectors, or in my case, most connectors, you do not mind the inconvenience.
Once the system is DONE (this can and does actually happen a few times in every audio kook's life) you do this.
I have found you can get most of the good effect by having the amplifier output leads soldered to the speaker wires and this same wire soldered to the driver directly. I am using multiple amps so this is done for each speaker amp combo. I have one amp (mid bass) that uses those SPEAKON things and have yet to go inside and liberate those wires. One of these days ... For low level use a connector at one end only and have the interconnect soldered direct on the other.
Another important place is for the tonearm wire to make one continuous run from the cartridge to the phono amp. You will have to rewire your tonearm to do this. Many years ago i attempted to solder the wires to the cartridge. You only have to try this once to know there is a limitation to this. Don't bother trying.
The only connector I have found that is almost benign is the DELTRONICS XLRs. You take the insert out of the housing which you then throw away unless you have lots of room for useless bits of metal. My system is not balanced so i use only two of the connections (of course). These are silver plated barrels and are as light as the EICHMANN RCAs but make a connection infinitely more secure. MOUSER sells these. Wish I could just get the inserts ...
So this is not for the lazy or for those who are constantly putting different components into their systems. But if you are working with an architecture you have decided is the way and are not playing with different components but trying to get he most out of what you have this is worth the effort.
I am almost sure that it was Enid Lumley who got me to try this decades ago. She was determined to get the most out of what she had. She wrote a column in THE ABSOLUTE SOUND and then moved over to IAR. AS you can imagine she was laughed at by many people who are likely incorporating her ideas into their systems today if they are still listening to music at all.
There is no such thing as a transparent connector. No matter how much money you spend on the things and you can spend silly money on them.
My favorites have to be those that are heavy. Could there be anything more wrong than a massive connector? No.
So AirBetweenTheNotes I agree with you and glad you brought this up. That is the frontier: the space between the notes and this approach lets you hear more of that.
I somewhat agree with you and that because you have only a half formed idea in your brain.
The *proper* way to do this is to get a pair of wires, both drawn at the same time, side by side, and from the same copper billet, this is VERY important because it´s the only way to achieve balance and purity, so you end up with two exact twin wires, which must be kept perfectly parallel.
Distance between them is not very important, you can go from 5 to, say, 100 mm , the point is that same distance is kept exactly the same within, say, 0.0001 mm so as to keep distortion below 0.00001% , the threshold of hearing for spatial distortion.
Once you have such perfect transmission line (I know the jargon
) you run it from sound source (magnetic pickup, ADC, microphone, electric guitar, whatever) straight to speaker terminals.
No connector/soldering/crimping path interruption allowed.
If possible, in a straight line; if not, through precise 90 degree bends (each within 0.0001 degree error so *total* accumulated error is less than 0.001 degree) and you add pertinent audio device stages (preamp/power amp/etc.) along the way, WITHOUT breaking the wire.
You will have to solder/crimp/twist device inputs and outputs to the transmission line (ugh !!! , opposing metals) but no damage is done because if done at exactly symmetrical points along the transmission line, they will perfectly cancel each other.
And then "Air Between The Notes" "No bad metal in the audio path" PERFECT SYSTEM [tm] can be achieved.
The *proper* way to do this is to get a pair of wires, both drawn at the same time, side by side, and from the same copper billet, this is VERY important because it´s the only way to achieve balance and purity, so you end up with two exact twin wires, which must be kept perfectly parallel.
Distance between them is not very important, you can go from 5 to, say, 100 mm , the point is that same distance is kept exactly the same within, say, 0.0001 mm so as to keep distortion below 0.00001% , the threshold of hearing for spatial distortion.
Once you have such perfect transmission line (I know the jargon
) you run it from sound source (magnetic pickup, ADC, microphone, electric guitar, whatever) straight to speaker terminals.No connector/soldering/crimping path interruption allowed.
If possible, in a straight line; if not, through precise 90 degree bends (each within 0.0001 degree error so *total* accumulated error is less than 0.001 degree) and you add pertinent audio device stages (preamp/power amp/etc.) along the way, WITHOUT breaking the wire.
You will have to solder/crimp/twist device inputs and outputs to the transmission line (ugh !!! , opposing metals) but no damage is done because if done at exactly symmetrical points along the transmission line, they will perfectly cancel each other.
And then "Air Between The Notes" "No bad metal in the audio path" PERFECT SYSTEM [tm] can be achieved.
Hardwiring is how I was drawn into this disease that once bitten I just followed a natural curve of "Oh! There might be something better than zip wire to my speakers?" & "Oh! There is something other than those thin black RCA plugs with red & white plastic ends on em that come with equipment?". I did start buying different wires & equipment but the Scotsman in me just couldn't get drawn into the % of diminishing returns racket that so much of all advertising is based on. So one piece at a time started removing metal out of the signal chain. Then better wire/dielectric. Then Silver solder. Different wire inside of speakers, then the metal tabs & rivets in crossovers, plus if they are on your drivers also. Finally backing it up to "I wonder how it would sound to not go through all the work to get this board fee so I can get the input jacks off & just solder straight to the jacks?" That's going to get some feathers ruffed here for sure but the compromise was an interesting halfway point between hard & soft wiring. Then next I was drawn into the components & all the various upgrades that can be made there. It has been a very rewarding path to start out into the "More than just buying stuff" part of HIFI.
This sort of stuff really should be banned from Diyaudio... It's the only somewhat sane/science based audio forum on the Internet.
I've never noticed a difference in cable direction, even turning one around to test it but being in a rush or not paying attention so there is movement as the solder hardens, or is solder forming a bridge between the 2 surfaces because you have not held the 2 metals tightly together as you solder, yes there is a difference for sure. Directional arrows only if you have a pseudo balanced signal wire, shielding or a resistor to deal with but if hardwiring that should be obvious as things aren't hidden within the jackets or fittings? I have given quite a bit of time to listening to wires direction & not been able to see a difference, my self, for me, to the best of my knowledge/equipment thus far.
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I find the post my JMFahey ludricrous.
Having had accees to industrial ohmmeters capable of measuring down t under 0.1 ohms, there is a heirarchy of connector resistance. Connector resistance over time does matter, as anybody who has worked on a 30 year old amp can attest. Oxide on push on connections is a major barrier to low voltage low current signals. Oxide can be removed by removing and replacing the connector usually, but some connectors are not subject to oxidation in the first place.
Solder connections do not oxidize internally. AMP (now TE connectivity) crimp on connectors made with the proper tool (not a $8 bargain from the R***** S*****) can exclude oxygen for decades. Crimp on connections under screws torqued properly can have much higher reliability over decades as opposed to push pin connectors or punch down blocks. The pressure of the screw inhibits the action of oxygen.
Speaker level signals at 8 ohms are higher in current, and over 1 Watt, higher in voltage to be subject to problems from oxygen. Thus the ubiquitous 1/4 phone plug seems to work okay, although the tendency of the device to short if pulled out partly has led to the popularity of speakons in the stage band market.
Reading the catalogs of now defunct relay manufacturers, the use of wrong contact material on dry circuits is a problem. Dry circuits are under 12 vdc and 50 ma typcally. For this service, gold plate push in connectors and relay contacts work better. Speaker connectors are not dry circuits.
I have also found, the normal 1/4 phone plug from most manufacturers inhibits the use of speaker wire over 12 ga. There is a right angle 1/4 phone plug from switchcraft, the 101-012, which allows 10 ga wire. I lucked out in finding this connector first. I have found on my SP2-XT speakers, using 101-012 on the speaker end, that I have lower level of vibrato on top octave piano source using 10' of 10 ga ultraflexible 3SO cord (Industrial power wire), versus 20' of 16 ga 7 strand zip cord on pamona phone connectors. The other end of this speaker cable was dorman brand spade terminals under terminal strip screws.
I have tried gold plate RCA plugs and jacks, but the system with them, the RA-88a, has poorer accuracy than the PAS2 preamp with tinplate RCA jacks. That is if you unplug and replug the tin plate jacks occasionally. They will oxide up if left alone for a decade. The design details of the box probably make the difference in sound.
I have found amps with punchdown connectors between driver and output transistors, have more reported problems over decades, than amps that are totally soldered together internally. The PV4, PV8, have several threads where a low current ground connection through a punchdown ribbon connector has driven several repair people nuts trying to find the problem.
By contrast the ST120, all soldered internally, plays on & on, if the silicon doesn't melt. I'm addressing the tendency to melt OT's with mods, now. The ST70 and PAS2 are 2 other systems whose life is limited by the wearout of the internal components, not the tendency of internal connections to drop the signal at a tin to tin connection. I've had the latter two for 45 years.
The difference in reliability between the all soldered Hammond organs prior to 1970, and the push connector Thomas, Lowrey and other brands, has led to the extinction of the latter and the survival of the former. I saw 2 B3 originals on stage Friday night on television - Paul Simon and Fans of the Riff Raff.
Having had accees to industrial ohmmeters capable of measuring down t under 0.1 ohms, there is a heirarchy of connector resistance. Connector resistance over time does matter, as anybody who has worked on a 30 year old amp can attest. Oxide on push on connections is a major barrier to low voltage low current signals. Oxide can be removed by removing and replacing the connector usually, but some connectors are not subject to oxidation in the first place.
Solder connections do not oxidize internally. AMP (now TE connectivity) crimp on connectors made with the proper tool (not a $8 bargain from the R***** S*****) can exclude oxygen for decades. Crimp on connections under screws torqued properly can have much higher reliability over decades as opposed to push pin connectors or punch down blocks. The pressure of the screw inhibits the action of oxygen.
Speaker level signals at 8 ohms are higher in current, and over 1 Watt, higher in voltage to be subject to problems from oxygen. Thus the ubiquitous 1/4 phone plug seems to work okay, although the tendency of the device to short if pulled out partly has led to the popularity of speakons in the stage band market.
Reading the catalogs of now defunct relay manufacturers, the use of wrong contact material on dry circuits is a problem. Dry circuits are under 12 vdc and 50 ma typcally. For this service, gold plate push in connectors and relay contacts work better. Speaker connectors are not dry circuits.
I have also found, the normal 1/4 phone plug from most manufacturers inhibits the use of speaker wire over 12 ga. There is a right angle 1/4 phone plug from switchcraft, the 101-012, which allows 10 ga wire. I lucked out in finding this connector first. I have found on my SP2-XT speakers, using 101-012 on the speaker end, that I have lower level of vibrato on top octave piano source using 10' of 10 ga ultraflexible 3SO cord (Industrial power wire), versus 20' of 16 ga 7 strand zip cord on pamona phone connectors. The other end of this speaker cable was dorman brand spade terminals under terminal strip screws.
I have tried gold plate RCA plugs and jacks, but the system with them, the RA-88a, has poorer accuracy than the PAS2 preamp with tinplate RCA jacks. That is if you unplug and replug the tin plate jacks occasionally. They will oxide up if left alone for a decade. The design details of the box probably make the difference in sound.
I have found amps with punchdown connectors between driver and output transistors, have more reported problems over decades, than amps that are totally soldered together internally. The PV4, PV8, have several threads where a low current ground connection through a punchdown ribbon connector has driven several repair people nuts trying to find the problem.
By contrast the ST120, all soldered internally, plays on & on, if the silicon doesn't melt. I'm addressing the tendency to melt OT's with mods, now. The ST70 and PAS2 are 2 other systems whose life is limited by the wearout of the internal components, not the tendency of internal connections to drop the signal at a tin to tin connection. I've had the latter two for 45 years.
The difference in reliability between the all soldered Hammond organs prior to 1970, and the push connector Thomas, Lowrey and other brands, has led to the extinction of the latter and the survival of the former. I saw 2 B3 originals on stage Friday night on television - Paul Simon and Fans of the Riff Raff.
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Yep, I'd go along with that, indianajo. A little commonsense goes a long way to clearing away the clouds of subjective waffling that really don't address anything - just confuse it. I'm pretty sure Mr Fahey is pulling our leg (or the just OPs) in one of his elaborate jokes though .
Resistance is an easily measured property of materials and connections. It really doesn't matter at all what you use to bond metals together, so long as the connection is stable at all expected currents and low enough in resistance to be irrelevant to the circuit operation. So, if your wire is 0.1R from end to end, what difference can a fixed 0.01R solder joint, weld or plug/socket connection make to domestic speaker connections?
Corroded, dirty metals or inadequate contact pressure can present a much higher and fluctuating resistance, hence distortion of the signal. It's usually an obvious problem and one I find almost every time I look behind someone's audio system, so identify (check at max. current) and fix that problem first, before losing the plot here in needless waffling and subjectivism.
IMV hard wiring is visual reinforcement. It looks solid so it must be better than a crimp, screw connector, spade, faston, plug/socket etc. right? But put it to the test - measure and see whether the hard wiring does anything more than stabilise bad connections, if there were any in the first place. Having spent some years in the quality assurance of electrical components, I have a fair idea of what constitutes a good, reliable connection when aircraft threatened to fall from the sky or transport networks stopped if they went bad. A major part of reliability is maintenance but it's ironic actually, that soldered wire connections have been a no-no in high-rel. electrical systems for a very long time
.Resistance is an easily measured property of materials and connections. It really doesn't matter at all what you use to bond metals together, so long as the connection is stable at all expected currents and low enough in resistance to be irrelevant to the circuit operation. So, if your wire is 0.1R from end to end, what difference can a fixed 0.01R solder joint, weld or plug/socket connection make to domestic speaker connections?
Corroded, dirty metals or inadequate contact pressure can present a much higher and fluctuating resistance, hence distortion of the signal. It's usually an obvious problem and one I find almost every time I look behind someone's audio system, so identify (check at max. current) and fix that problem first, before losing the plot here in needless waffling and subjectivism.
IMV hard wiring is visual reinforcement. It looks solid so it must be better than a crimp, screw connector, spade, faston, plug/socket etc. right? But put it to the test - measure and see whether the hard wiring does anything more than stabilise bad connections, if there were any in the first place. Having spent some years in the quality assurance of electrical components, I have a fair idea of what constitutes a good, reliable connection when aircraft threatened to fall from the sky or transport networks stopped if they went bad. A major part of reliability is maintenance but it's ironic actually, that soldered wire connections have been a no-no in high-rel. electrical systems for a very long time
Hi Ian.
If you refer back to my most and understanding it, I am giving you hints on how to confer system'coherence'.
This is one of the 'X' factors.
Dan.
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I have been perfectly serious in my advices.
Making sure of every/each cable direction confers complete/exact L/R matching.
Dan.
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That's cool Dan, getting someone to just think beyond their favourite brand has been a challenge in other threads so I started this one. I am just trying to keep things on track vs having the "only my way of doing things" highjacking this discussion. Absolutely the "Ideal" conductor would be identical conductors, I do my best with, out of the same roll & equal lengths & that way there is less physical time alignment skewing, globs of solder & twists of wire around a peg can complicate the time thing also I have experienced & therefore the clarity of the sound coming from your driver/s. I am asking for detailed explanations of what "We" did during Hardwiring to see results & share, not just conjecture as some want to do.
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You are not doing or proposing anything new or even rare. The answers you received are in line with that. You'll have to accept it.
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