I guess adult beverages are like musical tastes...depends on what you like
I lived in Southern Italy for a few years--seemed everyone made wine there. After a few hundred different wines from inexpensive to insanely expensive--I learned a valuable lesson. Wine, to me--tastes like a putrid waste of grapes. To be nice, I'll drink a toast of the stuff at weddings etc. but my genetics have removed the wine enjoyment DNA. Not a person in my family will drink wine unless forced so--a family tradition?
Strangely, I love cognac but generally cut it with Coke. Although a cognac hi-ball is heresy--that is how I like it. As far as beer is concerned, I prefer wheat ales and pass on lagers--unless you cut it with tomato juice and black pepper (Red Draw). Germans like to cut ale with Coke, I can cut lager with tomato juice and black pepper.
As far as "golden ears" or "trained ears" go... my nephew has the most amazing hearing and can pick things out in an instant. Part of it has to do with him knowing how to play multiple instruments with concert piano his specialty. However, the main reason he has such accurate hearing is they are his eyes to the world--he went blind at the age of 4. Music and math are his life but he is not particular about sound too much--unless it is his sound system of course.
When I tune my speakers, I generally do it by ear then a quick check with a meter to see if I get close...I usually get it right but grab a buddy that has been playing guitar for years to get a second opinion. If my wife mentions that it sounds good, a very rare occurrence, then I know I did something right.
I lived in Southern Italy for a few years--seemed everyone made wine there. After a few hundred different wines from inexpensive to insanely expensive--I learned a valuable lesson. Wine, to me--tastes like a putrid waste of grapes. To be nice, I'll drink a toast of the stuff at weddings etc. but my genetics have removed the wine enjoyment DNA. Not a person in my family will drink wine unless forced so--a family tradition?
Strangely, I love cognac but generally cut it with Coke. Although a cognac hi-ball is heresy--that is how I like it. As far as beer is concerned, I prefer wheat ales and pass on lagers--unless you cut it with tomato juice and black pepper (Red Draw). Germans like to cut ale with Coke, I can cut lager with tomato juice and black pepper.
As far as "golden ears" or "trained ears" go... my nephew has the most amazing hearing and can pick things out in an instant. Part of it has to do with him knowing how to play multiple instruments with concert piano his specialty. However, the main reason he has such accurate hearing is they are his eyes to the world--he went blind at the age of 4. Music and math are his life but he is not particular about sound too much--unless it is his sound system of course.
When I tune my speakers, I generally do it by ear then a quick check with a meter to see if I get close...I usually get it right but grab a buddy that has been playing guitar for years to get a second opinion. If my wife mentions that it sounds good, a very rare occurrence, then I know I did something right.
I feel that you make sense, 18Hurts. I, too, prefer Cognac over wine. However, I have tasted some very good wine, in my day, but it was really expensive. I have never heard of mixing cognac with Coca Cola.
As far as sound is concerned, trust your ears and you will be way ahead of the pack. Wives usually know best.
As far as sound is concerned, trust your ears and you will be way ahead of the pack. Wives usually know best.
I don't have a lot of vested interest in these audiophile debates. IMO one needs only look at progress made and how it was brought about, and that will point in the right direction. Probably the biggest issue I have with the topic dichotomy, the either/or-ness of the argument that keeps it going, is this. There appears to be wide acceptance that THD figures for an amp are of little usefulness. But, the golden ears claim is that they have trained aural sensitivities and can hear minute and subtle distortions. So the measured distortion is valueless, but the heard distortion is golden. That just doesn't equate in my mind, so I think I'd sooner say that both were wrong if pressed for an answer. I don't disagree with either side really, but I think the conclusions drawn are probably off the mark.
Sofaspud, I realize that much has been said about audio experts. Some people even write articles impugning them, but I have found the audiophile experience different from what is often stated. Of course, there are 'golden ears' much like 'golden tasters' or whatever they call themselves, regarding good food and wine. Many of my greatest critics here, spend their extra income on wine and good food, and belittle someone saving up better phono cartridge, or whatever. But to clear things up, serious audiophiles do NOT like added distortion, however, many have found that certain lower order (smooth) distortions that measure BIG on the meter, are really small in consequence, compared to other problems, some of which are still ill defined, even today.
So, sometimes what measures badly on a meter, especially at full output, sounds pretty good at normal listening levels (and it usually measures pretty good at low or working outputs).
So, sometimes what measures badly on a meter, especially at full output, sounds pretty good at normal listening levels (and it usually measures pretty good at low or working outputs).
Took me 2 minutes to find otherwise.
Heres measurements from a $250,000 amp that the reviewer (audiophile) loved.
5% THD distortion at 50 hz and a 5db bass boost at 100hz (not THD but still a distortion)
A quote from the end: "I can't explain why Michael found its sound so seductive; all I can do is point to the measurable problems or audible idiosyncrasies that must be listened through to hear what it does right."
Golden ears? The golden part is right, if it costs a lot it must sound great.
cbdb, if you want to learn from audio people, then OK. If you want to cite trivial examples, such as: 5 dB boost at 100 Hz, then I can offer no further comment. None of my designs have a 5 dB boost at 100Hz, in fact, I would 'freak out' if they had a 0.5 dB boost at 10 Hz. However, many of my critics here have chided me not providing bass boost or cut, as they like to be able to do it, by using either a tone control or an equilizer. In fact, I would not know how to put in a 5 dB boost at 100 Hz on a power amplifier. Do you have any ideas what they did, Wavebourn? You work with tubes much more than me, so perhaps you have seen something like this.
I don't know why somebody wants bass boost from $250,000 amplifier. Such a beast should use some super - tubes on their sweet-spot parts of transfer curves, with no negative feedback at all. And probably no coupling capacitors, just super-high quality interstage transformers. I can understand rol-off below 20 Hz and above 20 KHz, but boost... It seems to me either wrong device was measured, or wrong tools were used. 
Hello Mr. Curl, as I see it that's an apt comparison you've given. Maybe not perfect, but the point is made. Looking back, though, when you commented on the biker wine, I see that as a sort of "when in Rome" circumstance. Bikers are likely more concerned with the "whew, I'm buzzin!" aspect than any "my, that's such a very fine vintage" aspect. (Apologies to any biker wine clubs.) And there can be experts in either aspect IMO.
You also mentioned in a post something to the effect that "not any ol' amp will do" and I found that interesting in that taken to an extreme, it becomes sort of like some poor soul in a Twilight Zone episode, hearing these annoying distortions [from audio amps] that the vast majority are oblivious to. But if you've been able to come to terms with it, then I wouldn't feel right to severely castigate you over it because I recognize that it may be necessary to progress in your own work.
As to the distortions issues, "some of which are still ill defined, even today," they are of great interest to me. I find it highly unusual that decades of lower-distortion efforts culminate with it-doesn't-matter-so-much conclusions. If true, then the obvious audio revolutionist will be the person(s) that can identify and address a new target. Generally speaking, I don't accept the "it can't be measured" argument. Humans invent tools to expand their senses and abilities. Think of virtually any tool whose name ends with "scope." Think of poison gas detectors. Think of a Crescent wrench. I cannot in good conscience single out audio as somehow outside of this. I may be wrong, and I'm willing to be. I have experience at it.
You also mentioned in a post something to the effect that "not any ol' amp will do" and I found that interesting in that taken to an extreme, it becomes sort of like some poor soul in a Twilight Zone episode, hearing these annoying distortions [from audio amps] that the vast majority are oblivious to. But if you've been able to come to terms with it, then I wouldn't feel right to severely castigate you over it because I recognize that it may be necessary to progress in your own work.
As to the distortions issues, "some of which are still ill defined, even today," they are of great interest to me. I find it highly unusual that decades of lower-distortion efforts culminate with it-doesn't-matter-so-much conclusions. If true, then the obvious audio revolutionist will be the person(s) that can identify and address a new target. Generally speaking, I don't accept the "it can't be measured" argument. Humans invent tools to expand their senses and abilities. Think of virtually any tool whose name ends with "scope." Think of poison gas detectors. Think of a Crescent wrench. I cannot in good conscience single out audio as somehow outside of this. I may be wrong, and I'm willing to be. I have experience at it.
Sofaspud, we don't even know how to detect or measure the DARK MATTER in the universe. How dumb must we be to have not realized that without 'dark matter' that the galaxy would fall apart, and that Newton's Laws and Relativity don't give enough info?
Then how can you expect mere audio designers to be able completely understand and measure every problem that we have found?
Then how can you expect mere audio designers to be able completely understand and measure every problem that we have found?
Maybe he is talking about this one, not 250.000,- but 350.000,-
Wavac SH-833 monoblock power amplifier Measurements | Stereophile.com
Each topology has strong points, but have some flaws. What is hard to achieve in one topology, is easy in other. For example, cross-over distortions in single ended class A topology are non-existent, so no meaning of measuring them. The same, class AB amp with deep negative feedback has very low non-linear distotions on 1 KHz on full power, so such numbers don't matter. An so on, it is just most obvious example.
Maybe he is talking about this one, not 250.000,- but 350.000,-
Wavac SH-833 monoblock power amplifier Measurements | Stereophile.com
Quote:
Speaking of so called bast boost, he used "speaker simulator" for measurements. What is it, and how flat would you expect to be frequency response by a voltage when a real speaker is driven by an amp with relatively high output resistance?
Maybe he is talking about this one, not 250.000,- but 350.000,-
Wavac SH-833 monoblock power amplifier Measurements | Stereophile.com
Sorry should have proof read. Yes thats the amp.
How is 5db boost trivial? We are not talking about an EQ. And the reason they did this is to make there amp audibly different from others to sell it. Look at the other measurements, like the intermodulation.
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