phonetic
funny to hear a very professional phonetic specialist say that nothing beats the human perception
his claim was that because humans are specialists in controlling speech, we are also specialists in hearing and recognizing small differences
working for the law, his job was to use advanced technology to check what was heard actually also was said
and it was
hence he said nothing beats human perception
electronics is ofcourse not infallible
and by listening throught it, mistakes do occur
funny to hear a very professional phonetic specialist say that nothing beats the human perception
his claim was that because humans are specialists in controlling speech, we are also specialists in hearing and recognizing small differences
working for the law, his job was to use advanced technology to check what was heard actually also was said
and it was
hence he said nothing beats human perception
electronics is ofcourse not infallible
and by listening throught it, mistakes do occur
Accuracy is a precondition for musicality, as far as my experience tells me.
The question of course is, what kind of accuracy is relevant, and what kind of accuracy may be traded for some other kind. These may be to a considerable degree personal preferences. Just two examples.
1. Just because THD can be measured to incredible degrees of precision, does not mean that reaching that precision is necessary in a amplifier. So, some designers actually choose a slightly higher THD, if this means they can go by with little of no NFB, which sounds better to their ears. JC posted recently on this in another thread.
2. In loudspeaker design, there is a trade off between phase accuracy and frequency response. A full range speaker may show much less phase shift than a two way, but it is completely impossible to achieve the same flatness in the frequency response with a full range as with a 2way. In a 2way, electronic phase correction can be done, either analog or digital, but as far as I know, all these schemes lead to pre-ringing. That should not help with transient response. In short, accuracy cannot be achieved in all dimensions at the same time. So, what is most relevant? That is a personal question, and this where golden ears have to supplement measurements.
But, different ears may be more or less sensitive to different aspects of sound, even golden ones. Mine are not really sensitive to absolute phase, so for me a 4th order active xover with some electronic compensations for driver behaviour is quite OK, if that gives me a flat frequency response. However, the non-flat frequency response of all full rangers I have listened to renders music less accurate, for me that is. For others, the equation goes the other way.
That is why I would like to paraphrase Wavebourn's remark that "what is located between ears has to be calibrated by measurement devices" in the following way "differences preceived by the ear have to be correlated with measurements in order to optimize the performance of a design".
vac
The question of course is, what kind of accuracy is relevant, and what kind of accuracy may be traded for some other kind. These may be to a considerable degree personal preferences. Just two examples.
1. Just because THD can be measured to incredible degrees of precision, does not mean that reaching that precision is necessary in a amplifier. So, some designers actually choose a slightly higher THD, if this means they can go by with little of no NFB, which sounds better to their ears. JC posted recently on this in another thread.
2. In loudspeaker design, there is a trade off between phase accuracy and frequency response. A full range speaker may show much less phase shift than a two way, but it is completely impossible to achieve the same flatness in the frequency response with a full range as with a 2way. In a 2way, electronic phase correction can be done, either analog or digital, but as far as I know, all these schemes lead to pre-ringing. That should not help with transient response. In short, accuracy cannot be achieved in all dimensions at the same time. So, what is most relevant? That is a personal question, and this where golden ears have to supplement measurements.
But, different ears may be more or less sensitive to different aspects of sound, even golden ones. Mine are not really sensitive to absolute phase, so for me a 4th order active xover with some electronic compensations for driver behaviour is quite OK, if that gives me a flat frequency response. However, the non-flat frequency response of all full rangers I have listened to renders music less accurate, for me that is. For others, the equation goes the other way.
That is why I would like to paraphrase Wavebourn's remark that "what is located between ears has to be calibrated by measurement devices" in the following way "differences preceived by the ear have to be correlated with measurements in order to optimize the performance of a design".
vac
Exactly my point!
please no
Ok, let it be vice verse: tools calibrated by brain. Does not matter...
and how do you expect the good doctor would respond
Good doctor should join patient's reality to deserve good rapport, so I presume he would ask something like, "What language do your ears speak?", "Which voice does it remind you?", "What is the tone", "Can you mentally change the tone?", "Do you feel the difference if the voice sounds like some funny cartoon personage", and so on.
bloddy hell, you are right
I am listening with my brain
when I 'hear' disharmonies that aren't played at all
I can't actually hear them when not played at all
its just my brain knowing they are there
so its my brain 'hearing' them
and one reason why we may not hear the same thing at all
wow, that's cool
I'm listening with my brain
thanks Wavebourn, you just gave an eyeopener
ups, eyes have nothing to do with it
and I'm not even joking
just please don't give me a Lobotomy, or calibration, or whatevr you call it
I am listening with my brain
when I 'hear' disharmonies that aren't played at all
I can't actually hear them when not played at all
its just my brain knowing they are there
so its my brain 'hearing' them
and one reason why we may not hear the same thing at all
wow, that's cool
I'm listening with my brain
thanks Wavebourn, you just gave an eyeopener
ups, eyes have nothing to do with it
and I'm not even joking
just please don't give me a Lobotomy, or calibration, or whatevr you call it
Calibration has nothing to do with lobotomy!
Contrary, it is learning to measure with great precision without any tools. Tools are used on the phase of calibration. Did I tell the story, how after an exercise when we calibrated ability to measure distance using eyes (! ) and hand-held sonar, one German guy said, "Well, now what I am going to do in Europe with your feet and inches?!"
Contrary, it is learning to measure with great precision without any tools. Tools are used on the phase of calibration. Did I tell the story, how after an exercise when we calibrated ability to measure distance using eyes (!
) and hand-held sonar, one German guy said, "Well, now what I am going to do in Europe with your feet and inches?!"
No, I mean if the designer has well calibrated perception of distortions it helps to design equipment which distortions are unnoticed by others. But for the designer himself it is not good, it is hard to enjoy the music when you hear well distortions, and can imagine how waveform is distorted, and always try to figure out what in that darn equipment does such changes.
It is like actors when watch films don't see the story. They see and judge how actors play, and when some bad actress pulls down a good one in a dialogue they try to calm down instead of kicking her butt right on the screen.
this time I think its your turn to go see the good doctor
I did, actually. But she can't help. She says, I spoiled her tastes, and she can't hear common audio devices anymore.
Wavebourn, you said something useful, and people here cannot understand it. Of course, designers calibrate their listening for hearing specific problems. Often we have years of experience in doing so. We also might, like you and me (at one time) have listened to hours and hours of live music, both classical and popular.
Of course, it is more difficult for us to be happy with just any piece of audio equipment, but so what?
This reminds me of a party that I went to many years ago that served cheap jug wine. I had just returned from Europe, and was accustomed to drinking fairly decent wine, while there. Well, I could hardly drink the wine that was served, but plenty of motorcycle gang members found NO PROBLEM with it. I attribute this to my acquiring a 'taste' for what wine should taste like. Does this hamper me? Not very much, and it is much the same regarding hi fi reproduction.
Of course, it is more difficult for us to be happy with just any piece of audio equipment, but so what?
This reminds me of a party that I went to many years ago that served cheap jug wine. I had just returned from Europe, and was accustomed to drinking fairly decent wine, while there. Well, I could hardly drink the wine that was served, but plenty of motorcycle gang members found NO PROBLEM with it. I attribute this to my acquiring a 'taste' for what wine should taste like. Does this hamper me? Not very much, and it is much the same regarding hi fi reproduction.
LOL touché
Years ago I remember a study that concluded that men have an innate superiority over women at judging distance. Maybe due to hunter ballistics? Anyway, I was just wondering whether this all explains "chick rock."
Always an active debate, but it might well be the tom-a-to tom-ah-to of audio.
Not sure I fully buy in to john curl's modest analogy; European motorcycle gang members don't drink cheap jug wine?
about the pdf, what about those of us who have listened to thousands of hours of music but essentially were a part of the show, engineering what the audience heard. In all that time I was listening to the music and monitoring the accuracy of it as well. I could do both at the same time. I guess the problem is when someone who is compulsive gets into the minutia and gets stuck getting from 1 to 0. (infinite steps)
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