Be that as it may; now get back in your tub and play with your boat!
More seriously though it is a shame that so much bandwidth is wasted by those who continue to believe that their views on subjective:measurement arguements are going to influence anyone.........but I suppose it is as much an addiction as the mandatory (for some) hour in a pub venting ones views on sport, thereby performing a humanitarian service. In the interests of observing European anti-discrimination laws and laws concerning equal opportunity/rights I will have no more to say on the matter.
I agree, but while one side continues to post the other must too. If not, newbies might think that the issue has been resolved in favour of whoever happened to have the last word. That is a poor decision-making mechanism. Hence the aim is not so much to influence anyone, but to weaken the influence of others.brianco said:
Other websites solve this problem by partition, or one-sidedness. This one does not.
Awesome! Includes tools and a pizza! I'm sold!
And this button adds genuine chicken noises.
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How without some subjective measurements do you design and build ANYTHING, I cannot understand this view, all product design involves both subjective and objective parts in the design cycle.
Anyway this is the snake oil thread, it gives us stuck in the cycle of subjective
measurement's a chance to scoff at some of the absurd claims from the world of Audio
How without some subjective measurements do you design and build ANYTHING, I cannot understand this view, all product design involves both subjective and objective parts in the design cycle.
Anyway this is the snake oil thread, it gives us stuck in the cycle of subjective
measurement's a chance to scoff at some of the absurd claims from the world of Audio
Exactly. That's it in a nutshell,well said mate.
Audio components are for men what shoes are for women, they come in different styles,colors,sizes and prices. For a lot of people, unfortunately, they want style over substance. Looks and price come before actual performance. Tubes glow and look pretty Machined billet face plates look pretty. Fancy cables that are as thick as your wrist look impressive. The assorted tweaks that are very questionable (Okay downright fraudulent) come with pages of pseudo-scientific jargon from the manufacturer that reads like a cheap Sci-Fi novel from the 50's but hey, they MUST do something otherwise they wouldn't go to all that trouble to make it right? So forth and so on......there are those that HAVE to be able to look at their audio components while playing music to be able to enjoy them. Notice I said "them", not the music For people like the above mentioned, there isn't much hope of ever changing their outlook. The more a product costs and the more reviews read about it online from those websites that cater to the gullible, the more willing they are to shell out the big bucks for that BLING factor.
For the rest of us, we are fortunate to be able to know what works and what doesn't by objectively studying, reading and TESTING. Common sense goes a long way in audio towards a fulfilling life. As most of you know, well some of you at least, common sense isn't all that common.
That is why I strive to post about the silly products or those that just test badly yet seem to get good reviews from those websites that aren't being all that helpful to those wanting some truth. "I heard this" is a personal statement that only applies to the person making it unless they can back it up with hard data.
For some of you the following links may be helpful.
A Brief Guide to Audio for the Skeptical Consumer | Numeral Nine Music and Audio Blog
http://ethanwiner.com/believe.html
So forth and so on......there are those that HAVE to be able to look at their audio components while playing music to be able to enjoy them. Notice I said "them", not the music For people like the above mentioned, there isn't much hope of ever changing their outlook. The more a product costs and the more reviews read about it online from those websites that cater to the gullible, the more willing they are to shell out the big bucks for that BLING factor.For the rest of us, we are fortunate to be able to know what works and what doesn't by objectively studying, reading and TESTING. Common sense goes a long way in audio towards a fulfilling life. As most of you know, well some of you at least, common sense isn't all that common.
That is why I strive to post about the silly products or those that just test badly yet seem to get good reviews from those websites that aren't being all that helpful to those wanting some truth. "I heard this" is a personal statement that only applies to the person making it unless they can back it up with hard data.
For some of you the following links may be helpful.
A Brief Guide to Audio for the Skeptical Consumer | Numeral Nine Music and Audio Blog
http://ethanwiner.com/believe.html
If valves were not to glow, they would not operate.
A decent chassis build quality is more than just good looks.
As far as I'm concerned, exceptional claims require exceptional proof; for example, if someone claims great improvements in SQ because of a special type of wire with "unidirectional" properties, and says that some heretofore unknown property of copper (or whatever) wire is at work, the burden of proof should be on them.
1. "You're claiming that there isn't a difference. Prove THAT!"
2. "The difference is obvious to anyone with a good set of ears and a sufficiently resolving system."
3. "Science doesn't know everything."
4. "You haven't tried it, so you have no business dismissing it."
5. "You engineers would rather read meters than listen to music."
6. "My non-audiophile wife in the next room was able to tell the difference."
7. "Lots of people from all over the world hear the same thing, so it must be true."
8. "We tried this at my audio club meeting and the listeners were astounded. One of them was a physicist who dismissed it at first until he listened. He could hardly believe it."
It is worse than that. "I heard this" may just mean "I sincerely believe I heard this".DavidL said:
9. "This audio technology was developed by the military for secret radar/sonar applications, so the details cannot be disclosed, but everyone knows the military will never waste money on bad science."
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Whereupon we can reach an impasse - the person who trusts their ears can hear that the DBT setup is of poor quality, its failings intrude so much that it is a very poor tool for use in assessment, hence disregards it. This who believe in DBT insist on people using it, saying any tool, no matter how flawed it is, is better than none - and those who trust their ears just roll their eyes, go through the motions, and immediately dismiss the result whichever way it goes, because of the procedure weaknesses ...
I was at the Royal agricultural Show in Perth Western Australia in about 1976.I'm just guessing 1976, color TV had just arrived in West Australia and they had a color TV showing a video loop of a brand new jumbo jet taking off and landing. They had a Hi Fi expo as well with a blind test on speakers,the speakers were disguised to all look the same. audiophiles from local audio retailers magazines and newspapers that were invited all put in their votes and then the organizers took off the covers.The winning speakers by far turned out to be a pair of 4 ohm Tammon car speakers that measured approx 8 inches by 5 inches they looked so tiny sitting on the shelves of the fake floorspeakers.The funny thing is no-one laughed,not at first anyway it was more jaw dropping.These audiophiles were all supposed to be the best in Perth at that time.I can still remember the howls of protest they sent up in their various newspaper columns about how they had been set up and tricked etc... The fact is the Tammons were better by their own criteria than the stuff they were hawking at the time. Believe your buckeneers boys.
Cable thoughts that make go hmmmm 
- Many companies say just because it can't be measured doesn't mean it isn't real, so if they have no way to measure and qualify their design, how is it they are able to make a line of product that varies from great to amazing?
- How is it they can come out with improved models and take their product to another level when they never knew how they got to where they are in the first place?
- If all electronics manufacturers had to take into account the vast differences cables inflict on their product, and if cable companies claims are true, how could they even possibly think their electronics design and sonic characters could hold any sort of claim once in an owner's situation with various cables, or even a mix of various manufacturers products?
I always thought the "perfect cable" goal was to make no change to the original signal, so is that then to say all cables are just plain bad or purposely crippled therefore the more you pay the closer you get to having paid for nothing at all?
- Many companies say just because it can't be measured doesn't mean it isn't real, so if they have no way to measure and qualify their design, how is it they are able to make a line of product that varies from great to amazing?
- How is it they can come out with improved models and take their product to another level when they never knew how they got to where they are in the first place?
- If all electronics manufacturers had to take into account the vast differences cables inflict on their product, and if cable companies claims are true, how could they even possibly think their electronics design and sonic characters could hold any sort of claim once in an owner's situation with various cables, or even a mix of various manufacturers products?
I always thought the "perfect cable" goal was to make no change to the original signal, so is that then to say all cables are just plain bad or purposely crippled therefore the more you pay the closer you get to having paid for nothing at all?
Yet, dare to suggest on diyAudio right now that speaker quality isn't terribly, terribly important - and then sit back and just listen to the howls and screams ...
And so, the greatest snake oil theory of all is that you have to have really, really good speakers - otherwise, your sound can never be anything but cr@ppy ...
And so, the greatest snake oil theory of all is that you have to have really, really good speakers - otherwise, your sound can never be anything but cr@ppy ...
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