So what you are arguing is that an 8ft tall line array is in fact all things to all people, even those who can't actually use it. Where am I 'technically wrong' pointing out that however good it is (which it certainly is) it cannot be described as 'best' without any kind of qualification, since there is no such thing as 'best', only a set of compromises that we have to select from as appropriate to individual situations and requirements?
You appear to have now introduced commentary on time / frequency domain, and are making a series of statements that you claim I disagree about, without my actually having said anything on the subject. I can only guess that you have looked at a small handful of speakers I have had some little contribution to, and have decided on that basis that I apparently hold a series of opinions you take exception to. Let me be crystal clear: you do not know what my opinion is on this matter. Nor, because I may happen to design a speaker or even a number of speakers of xyz type, does that mean they necessarily reflect my preferences, or even opinions. The vast majority of loudspeakers that I design are not for me. They are for other people.
If you could also produce your evidence showing that I only design complex transmission lines, I would be most interested to see it. I suspect everybody else who I have designed other types of loudspeaker for would also be intrigued.
You appear to have now introduced commentary on time / frequency domain, and are making a series of statements that you claim I disagree about, without my actually having said anything on the subject. I can only guess that you have looked at a small handful of speakers I have had some little contribution to, and have decided on that basis that I apparently hold a series of opinions you take exception to. Let me be crystal clear: you do not know what my opinion is on this matter. Nor, because I may happen to design a speaker or even a number of speakers of xyz type, does that mean they necessarily reflect my preferences, or even opinions. The vast majority of loudspeakers that I design are not for me. They are for other people.
If you could also produce your evidence showing that I only design complex transmission lines, I would be most interested to see it. I suspect everybody else who I have designed other types of loudspeaker for would also be intrigued.
Last edited:
Great Scott! It wasn't quite the same without you.
.Wish Mark and Martin would come back too.
An externally hosted image should be here but it was not working when we last tested it.
Generalisations can be useful if all parties in the conversation agree on the context and terms. But that is perhaps a bit too much to ask from a large public forum like this.
Last edited:
Ah, well, you know. I kind of missed the place. But I've asked for my posts in this thread to be deleted and my account suspended. This time for good. There you go Derek -you've got what you wanted.
No chance with Mark I suspect. Martin -who knows. He got screwed by too many people using his worksheets commercially without obtaining the appropriate (very modest) license. I can't say I blame him, I'd be angry too. Granted, legally I imagine the terms were unenforceable, but that wasn't really the point: it's just common decency. You'd pay in that position, right? So would I, and so would most people. But there's always a few sadly.
Agreed 100% -generalisations are fine within a reasonable context. That's fair enough. But without qualification -not so good. Which is all I was pointing out, although it seems to have upset Derek for some reason.
No chance with Mark I suspect. Martin -who knows. He got screwed by too many people using his worksheets commercially without obtaining the appropriate (very modest) license. I can't say I blame him, I'd be angry too. Granted, legally I imagine the terms were unenforceable, but that wasn't really the point: it's just common decency. You'd pay in that position, right? So would I, and so would most people. But there's always a few sadly.
Agreed 100% -generalisations are fine within a reasonable context. That's fair enough. But without qualification -not so good. Which is all I was pointing out, although it seems to have upset Derek for some reason.
Last edited:
Don't be so easily offended. He's just some random troublemaker. I don't know his game but it can't be a recipee for a good social life to be rude and combatative. Pity him, don't take offense.
For what it's worth I want you to stay. Your input is greatly appreciated. This forum has something to give you, otherwise you wouldn't have come back. And you have a lot to give to this forum.
For what it's worth I want you to stay. Your input is greatly appreciated. This forum has something to give you, otherwise you wouldn't have come back. And you have a lot to give to this forum.
Scott, I hope you stay. I saw no ill remark anywhere in this thread from your side. I hope I was careful enough with my wording (not always as easy in a foreign language) not to offend anyone myself. This is a marvellous place to talk about all things audio and in my view you belong here as much as anyone.
We don't all have to do things the same way, nor do we have to have the same outlook on this stuff to enjoy or please ourselves. It's the differences that make us think. And that's not a bad thing. So I do hope you'll reconsider.
I'd love to keep seeing you post here, speaking purely for myself. I have to breath a few times if I see something that bugs me. I've also posted things only to regret it later on.
But I do love this place, as I bet most of us do. You're definitely part of that, at least I hope so.
We don't all have to do things the same way, nor do we have to have the same outlook on this stuff to enjoy or please ourselves. It's the differences that make us think. And that's not a bad thing. So I do hope you'll reconsider.
I'd love to keep seeing you post here, speaking purely for myself. I have to breath a few times if I see something that bugs me. I've also posted things only to regret it later on.
But I do love this place, as I bet most of us do. You're definitely part of that, at least I hope so.
Last edited:
Yes. And the TC9 lets us hear the music only after removing lots of the important low level information. If you have a system that already losses that or you don't care about the nuance of a voice or the texture of an instrument or value a solid soundstage/image it will seem fine.
dave
Hi Scott,
First of all, sorry about my tone, with hindsight I came across as rude and that was not my intention.
I was posting from my phone and was on a train so a bit distracted by some party goers !
On the technical points, I totally stand by what I said and here are a few reasons.
Full length line arrays and / or mini arrays plus subs are indeed a universal solution to the majority of domestic audio problems......There you have it!
I believe I can walk into 80% (approx) of domestic homes and £ for £ provide a superior solution to whatever audio problems / situations present themselves using a DSP / Line array compared to any conventional system ie all the systems I can see on your web site(s).
Wesayso uses a floor to ceiling array, cause he can!
Where budget or WAF factors preclude this small scale versions are equally valid.
Gone are the days of huge complex wooden cabinets with TL / ports / passive crossovers being the only way.....That 100 year old tech has not evolved....Its no longer the best way to achieve value for money at any point on the audio ladder.
Cheers
Derek.
Derek,
While Wesayo has astounded us all with his towers, and there is a huge amount of love put into them, have you actually heard them? Any judgement on their quality is very suspect without that. It was because of those (and X's) high praise i bought 4 TC9s. I was quite dissappointed with their performance.
dave
Hi Dave,
Fair point, I have not heard Wesayso's arrays, but, over the last 5 years I have built 23 pairs of arrays / mini arrays / panels / and recently point source plus bass / mid ie " Fast" systems.
I have used a very similar Tymphany driver to Wesayso's TC9 drivers, plus a Chineese OEM clone ( yugh!) as well as standard BMR's and of course my own BMR's.
I feel I am on solid ground and well qualified to make the claims which I do regarding my own systems and others line arrays.
I would also add that currently there is no software able to accurately simulate on wall line arrays in real world rooms....This makes it all the more challenging and also bodes well for the future as once the modelling software developers catch up the performance will increase even further.
All the best
Derek.
Fair point, I have not heard Wesayso's arrays, but, over the last 5 years I have built 23 pairs of arrays / mini arrays / panels / and recently point source plus bass / mid ie " Fast" systems.
I have used a very similar Tymphany driver to Wesayso's TC9 drivers, plus a Chineese OEM clone ( yugh!) as well as standard BMR's and of course my own BMR's.
I feel I am on solid ground and well qualified to make the claims which I do regarding my own systems and others line arrays.
I would also add that currently there is no software able to accurately simulate on wall line arrays in real world rooms....This makes it all the more challenging and also bodes well for the future as once the modelling software developers catch up the performance will increase even further.
All the best
Derek.
I have yet to hear an array i could live with. If i get to the UK (and have time) i'd be asking to come hear yours. One thing arrays do not satisfy is that they are not all that affordable. A huge gotcha with most here.
I have heard the TC9. The Scan 10F is from the same people, and despite showing a strong physical resembalnce is a whole different class. And the 10F is itself overshadowed by some other less expensive drivers. Each driver needs to be evaluated on its own merits.
DSP shows great promise, but it is not yet a panacea. Its ultimate quality is dependent on the DACs. And if ADC is required all bets are off (take the DCX2496 for example). So it is not cheap.
dave
Sieniek and I are both in the UK where the TC9 is unavailable anyway. As far as I have found small full range here, we can get X's 3 & 4" faitalPROs for £10-14ea, then apart from some visatons of which I know nothing, MA's chn70s come next at £42/pair, followed by the Seas H1600 at £33 ea. You frequently mention Fostex but the cheapest are over £50 ea!!! How do the 4Fe35's compare with the other popular drivers in the US/Canada? So far I knocked up a quick pair of TQWT's designed on mh-audio, am very impressed by what I hear and am going to get more to experiment with, in Karlsonator, Tabaq, and Woden's Skyflash cabinets. If anyone else in UKland wants to play with them the best price seems to be Lean-Business in Ipswich. They also do Eminence at good prices.
You and I see things differently. Probably hear different too
. At no point do I listen to a pure TC9-FD18-08. I use them as a base and optimise what I can. I would use them again in a heartbeat. I do have Scan Speak's 10F version to compare, but even those are not running "pure" over here.Different strokes for different folks. All in my humble opinion though.
I'll get some notable people in for a listen. I've had quite a few over already. So far the most common comment I get: I didn't know that "... was in this song" and more comments like that. Including in my own perception of songs I've known all my life. So I am not complaining.
More than one driver you have backed up wouldn't make it on my list. Let's leave it at that. My usage is way different.
But if you are ever in my neighbourhood, you'd be welcome for a listen.
Panacea is a solution for ALL.
Panacea | Definition of Panacea by Merriam-Webster
This is clearly not the case with DSP. For instance (and we only need one instance) is someone with an all analog system.
dave
Eminence Alpha 15A Experimental Open Baffle Design at the MJK site is a good template for starters.
Quarter Wavelength Loudspeaker Projects
We built a variation with FF85KeN.
dave
Quarter Wavelength Loudspeaker Projects
We built a variation with FF85KeN.
dave
An analogy that supports Scott's point. R10 is not that good a choice if you have to take the kids to soccer or the latest harvest to the market.
Different situations require different choices.
dave
Quite re there being no panaceas in this physical reality. Probably a good thing.
As far as arrays go, speaking for myself, I like them well enough. I've designed enough of them, as Dave knows only too well.
As far as your opinion on some of my cabinet designs goes Derek -you appear to have mistaken me for someone who cares. They achieve their design objectives, and several have made quite a few people very happy. That is what I care about.
Probably a good thing. As far as arrays go, speaking for myself, I like them well enough. I've designed enough of them, as Dave knows only too well.
As far as your opinion on some of my cabinet designs goes Derek -you appear to have mistaken me for someone who cares. They achieve their design objectives, and several have made quite a few people very happy. That is what I care about.
- Status
- This old topic is closed. If you want to reopen this topic, contact a moderator using the "Report Post" button.