I have a pair of BIB's with Hemp Acoustics FR8's, and I think they make fantastic HT speakers. I'm getting solid bass to 30hz; which is plenty for me. It may be enough for you, too. If you are at all interested, try it! I previously had the Hemps in sealed enclosures (no HP filter) with a TL sub. I like the BIB's more. They do not need BSC (if anything <200-300hz is too high in level), as any other enclosure would, so you save some efficiency. Horn loaded bass is a very unique thing, too.
I would not use an FE206E or the Audio Nirvana in an enclosure other than a horn, unless you include a HF shelving circuit in addition to BSC. The HF rise (due to the shorting ring) is intolerable to me in such an enclosure. The FE207E, Hemp, Creative Sound, Neophone, or Jordan would all work fine without HF attenuation.
I would not use an FE206E or the Audio Nirvana in an enclosure other than a horn, unless you include a HF shelving circuit in addition to BSC. The HF rise (due to the shorting ring) is intolerable to me in such an enclosure. The FE207E, Hemp, Creative Sound, Neophone, or Jordan would all work fine without HF attenuation.
The 207 has higher Q and works better in non-horn boxes than the 206.
For the 206 in a butt joint horn, you are left with either the Fostex recommended 208 horn, which is known to work really well, or Sachico (the Nagoka-style member of the Spawn family for 8" drivers). Both these have front mouths (the latter has 2).
At 6 ft tall & 15" wide Sachico could at least be disguised as part of the house structure. The pathway is wide enuff that a cat could make a nest up inside thou (at least until you whack em with something like the 5th symphony at significant volume.
dave
For the 206 in a butt joint horn, you are left with either the Fostex recommended 208 horn, which is known to work really well, or Sachico (the Nagoka-style member of the Spawn family for 8" drivers). Both these have front mouths (the latter has 2).
At 6 ft tall & 15" wide Sachico could at least be disguised as part of the house structure. The pathway is wide enuff that a cat could make a nest up inside thou (at least until you whack em with something like the 5th symphony at significant volume.
dave
Visualization of Sachico posted here
http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/showthread.php?postid=1110882#post1110882
dave
http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/showthread.php?postid=1110882#post1110882
dave
Revived
Is two years long enough for this thread to sit?
OK, here's what happened to me. I've whittled away the last year or so blissfully enjoying my Bruces (with FE206+series resistance on an SS Amp - Scottmoose=Genius!) in the bedroom. However, yesterday I helped my boss set up his Home Theatre in a Box thing. It rekindled my interest in HT. I set up my HT stuff in the living room. It's all there, the surround and effects, but I've been spoiled by the 206! I love the 'full range' sound.
I'd like to do a full range HT setup that can get plenty loud. Close to THX spec, maybe (what even IS that for speakers, or is it just for "systems"?) Budget about $600 for the drivers only, not counting sub. Here's some options I've thought of please feel free to bash or add.
1. Center, a 206 or a 207 (need a center for when everyone's over, I can always phantom center when it's just me and the gf) My size limit would be 11"x44"x aprox 12" max to fit on top of the TV. Aesthetically speaking a horizontal double mouth or double slot port would be perfect.
2. Mains, use the Bruces. Would high passing them at 80 or 120 be a big waste of the lower tuning? Should I consider some sort of box for the 206 or other speaker that's tuned to 80 or 120? Size limit would be around the size of the Bruces 60"x12"x16"
3. Surrounds, use fostex 127's or 167's, or some Tang bands, either up firing on stands or in smaller sealed boxes mounted on the wall. Or even a dipole.
So there's my quest. SAF is fairly low, she's put up with the Bruces all this time I'd appreciate any input anyone has.
Thanks,
Bruce
Is two years long enough for this thread to sit?
OK, here's what happened to me. I've whittled away the last year or so blissfully enjoying my Bruces (with FE206+series resistance on an SS Amp - Scottmoose=Genius!) in the bedroom. However, yesterday I helped my boss set up his Home Theatre in a Box thing. It rekindled my interest in HT. I set up my HT stuff in the living room. It's all there, the surround and effects, but I've been spoiled by the 206! I love the 'full range' sound.
I'd like to do a full range HT setup that can get plenty loud. Close to THX spec, maybe (what even IS that for speakers, or is it just for "systems"?) Budget about $600 for the drivers only, not counting sub. Here's some options I've thought of please feel free to bash or add.
1. Center, a 206 or a 207 (need a center for when everyone's over, I can always phantom center when it's just me and the gf) My size limit would be 11"x44"x aprox 12" max to fit on top of the TV. Aesthetically speaking a horizontal double mouth or double slot port would be perfect.
2. Mains, use the Bruces. Would high passing them at 80 or 120 be a big waste of the lower tuning? Should I consider some sort of box for the 206 or other speaker that's tuned to 80 or 120? Size limit would be around the size of the Bruces 60"x12"x16"
3. Surrounds, use fostex 127's or 167's, or some Tang bands, either up firing on stands or in smaller sealed boxes mounted on the wall. Or even a dipole.
So there's my quest. SAF is fairly low, she's put up with the Bruces all this time
I'd appreciate any input anyone has.Thanks,
Bruce
I'm guilty of skipping most of the thread as it stands now, I'd just like to chime in and say that my stereo 3" BIBs + small subwoofer are quite excellent as a HT system. Sound effects are very real, door slams are door slams, and exploding cars have a nice cinematic heft to them. Dialogue is very clear, and the music is sweet. Bowed strings for the win.
Oh yes, I made a pair of bibs with tang-bands and it took me about 6 mos (of break-in time and proper auditioning ) before I gave them to my friend as his gift! That is why I want to do this. However, given some of the demands on HT speakers, I don't want to risk damage to the speakers or good sound by turning it up too loud.
) before I gave them to my friend as his gift! That is why I want to do this. However, given some of the demands on HT speakers, I don't want to risk damage to the speakers or good sound by turning it up too loud.Hi Gang, long time listener -first time caller etc etc
I have a pair of rear loaded horns that have done excellent duty over 20+ years of service but it may be time for a change.
Home Theater is a big part of my music/hifi enjoyment so a multi-channel solution is a must. I understand the desire to use "phantom centre" and no sub woofer - but the way I see it, movie soundtracks were engineered with 5.1 (or even 7.1) in mind.
So, concentrating on the 'front-of-house' for a starter, I can envisage a pair of Frugel Horns for LR, but all my trolling for a centre to match has come up a bit short, has anyone played with a 'baby' Spawn lying in it's side? The Spawn family seems to fly in the face of Ed's rear-facing only horn theory, but with only a back wall to bounce off MDM may make more sense......
Any input most welcome, Dave I need to order some drivers once we decide what course to follow (living in Australia sux when it comes to sourcing Fostex goodies)
Charles
I have a pair of rear loaded horns that have done excellent duty over 20+ years of service but it may be time for a change.
Home Theater is a big part of my music/hifi enjoyment so a multi-channel solution is a must. I understand the desire to use "phantom centre" and no sub woofer - but the way I see it, movie soundtracks were engineered with 5.1 (or even 7.1) in mind.
So, concentrating on the 'front-of-house' for a starter, I can envisage a pair of Frugel Horns for LR, but all my trolling for a centre to match has come up a bit short, has anyone played with a 'baby' Spawn lying in it's side? The Spawn family seems to fly in the face of Ed's rear-facing only horn theory, but with only a back wall to bounce off MDM may make more sense......
Any input most welcome, Dave I need to order some drivers once we decide what course to follow (living in Australia sux when it comes to sourcing Fostex goodies)
Charles
Bluerex said:
The real centre in a movie theatre is primamrily for the benefit of the theatre owners so that they can fit people in the "cheap" seats up front on the sides. AFAIC if you have no cheap seats a virtual centre (and your speakers image, which FH certainly does) is supperior. To challenge it you would need n identical speaker with identical placement. The TV is usually in the wrong place.
I have an unpublished small "horn" design for an FF85K, but for a small enclosure an FE127 is probably a better match voicing wise. .Since bass is not really critical for centre an FE126 (with-or-without series R) in a BR could serve. Venom might work to.
As to what Ed says, he is right if the goal is full horn loading. Most horn designs are really horn/TL hybrids, and if you consider where the cut-off is for the horn part is, often mostly TLs (TL used here in its broadest sense as any QW design)
A corner, in theory, allows for an 8x reduction in the size of the horn mouth. That said both the Horn & the Frudel-Horn (level 9 or Level 1) are horns to ~ 150 Hz and TLs below that, add the deflector to the FH and the extra mouth-size from the deflector brings a FH down to ~75Hz. (this all taken from some notes i made a while ago -- the math is probably worth a recheck)
dave
planet10 said:
Predictably, since waiting for my post to clear I stumbled on the Carder site and found this little guy - nothing new under the sun I guess
An externally hosted image should be here but it was not working when we last tested it.
Charles
The Carder box is a BVR that was designed specifically for Jeff... plans are proprieary, The centre & the surrounds are the same box, with different names.
Part of the goal was a cosmetic match with large horns he sells.
Personally i'd just use a set of mFonken as a centre if i went FE127
dave
Part of the goal was a cosmetic match with large horns he sells.
Personally i'd just use a set of mFonken as a centre if i went FE127
dave
Makes sense.
As a closet fan of '70s Quadraphonics, I have a bit of a jaundiced view of a lot of modern HT. As Dave mentions / hints at, the centre-channel primarily exists to improve off-axis dialogue imaging, and unfortunately, many DVDs are mixed in such a way as to cause it to dominate at the expense of the front LR channels. Ergo, my personal take is that unless you are sitting well off to one side, junk it & go phantom-centre. It's more trouble than it's worth.
Just to add a little bit WRT horns, Ed, again as Dave mentions, is quite correct if we stipulate that a horn is defined maintaining an optimum impedance match down to cut-off. However, technically, a horn may be defined as any tube that expands sufficiently toward the terminus to result in a shift to 1/2 wave action (it still has a 1/4 wave fundamental if one end is closed & the other open, but the resonant frequency of a cone [for example] is defined by lambda/2 rather than the lambda/4 of an untapered cylinder, and it also possess both odd and even harmonics). Impedance matching at cut-off then, arguably, may be a design goal, but it does not necessarily define what is & what is not a horn. So, ultimately, it depends on how you view it.
As a closet fan of '70s Quadraphonics, I have a bit of a jaundiced view of a lot of modern HT. As Dave mentions / hints at, the centre-channel primarily exists to improve off-axis dialogue imaging, and unfortunately, many DVDs are mixed in such a way as to cause it to dominate at the expense of the front LR channels. Ergo, my personal take is that unless you are sitting well off to one side, junk it & go phantom-centre. It's more trouble than it's worth.
Just to add a little bit WRT horns, Ed, again as Dave mentions, is quite correct if we stipulate that a horn is defined maintaining an optimum impedance match down to cut-off. However, technically, a horn may be defined as any tube that expands sufficiently toward the terminus to result in a shift to 1/2 wave action (it still has a 1/4 wave fundamental if one end is closed & the other open, but the resonant frequency of a cone [for example] is defined by lambda/2 rather than the lambda/4 of an untapered cylinder, and it also possess both odd and even harmonics). Impedance matching at cut-off then, arguably, may be a design goal, but it does not necessarily define what is & what is not a horn. So, ultimately, it depends on how you view it.
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my kids would have a lot of fun aiming popcorn into the Carder boxes
I was thinking about the 'phantom centre' but it seems to me that there's a tradeoff. If you put the L and R fronts close enough that you can safely eliminate the centre you are doing the opposite of maximizing the surround effect of pushing the L & R further apart. In my (future) HT system the L & R will be fairly well separated and without a centre anybody not sat reasonably close to equidistant from the L & R channels will not get the right experience. I guess it depends on the details of your set up in the end as to whether the phantom centre is a good bet or not.
I was thinking about the 'phantom centre' but it seems to me that there's a tradeoff. If you put the L and R fronts close enough that you can safely eliminate the centre you are doing the opposite of maximizing the surround effect of pushing the L & R further apart. In my (future) HT system the L & R will be fairly well separated and without a centre anybody not sat reasonably close to equidistant from the L & R channels will not get the right experience. I guess it depends on the details of your set up in the end as to whether the phantom centre is a good bet or not.
Bigun said:
My system is 2.1. Speakers are pretty close to the "official" placement.
Even when i sit outside of the tight speaker (in the comfy chair) i have no issues with the phantom.
You just need a speaker that images well and has a wide sweet-spot. All of my favorites seem to satisfy that... listening to Tysen ATM.
dave
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