Hey, appreciate that Quick answer - it is really great reference for a novice like me.
Can share about in what way does D802 has an poorer USB implementation?
As I would hope make purchase effort worthwhile, therefore even consider taking XMOS USB if it really makes sense. I read D802 PCM2706 USB's being matured widely used platform works well with Windows 10. Also if Android phone support USB OTG, can connect to FDA.
How about XMOS USB in this aspect? In what way is it better?
Will I expect to face more headaches?
Does both D802 & D8 support the same format, does both support I2S?
Can share about in what way does D802 has an poorer USB implementation?
As I would hope make purchase effort worthwhile, therefore even consider taking XMOS USB if it really makes sense. I read D802 PCM2706 USB's being matured widely used platform works well with Windows 10. Also if Android phone support USB OTG, can connect to FDA.
How about XMOS USB in this aspect? In what way is it better?
Will I expect to face more headaches?
Does both D802 & D8 support the same format, does both support I2S?
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Well, I'll try to answer your questions. A first clue to the quality of the USB (or other) interface is to look at the spec. of the product and see what sample rates and bit depths it supports. Those with higher capabilities are likely to be more modern implementations that, even when used at more normal/modest bit rates,are on the balance of probabilities likely to sound better if indeed there should be any audible difference between them.
If you search around the posts there are more detailed comments on these amps and other candidates as well, but specifically the D802 has an odd design decision in using an older multi-purpose audio chip for USB which does not support modern high bit rates, whilst also not using the other capabilities of that chip. The D8 PCM option is by contrast an inexpensive but relatively modern and quite respected dedicated USB chip. The xmos USB implementation is better still.
Regarding ease of use I use Linux myself and with that the D8 xmos USB, and in fact the USB of any of these amps I've tried, all 'just work' and work well without special drivers. For Windows audio I can't offer any useful advice.
All of these amps use I2S internally for digital transport within the amp. None offer I2S external interfaces. Both the amps discussed here offer the same high quality receiver chip for converting external SPDIF to internal I2S so trying to bypass these with some sort of diy direct I2S connection would be ...... unusual.
If you search around the posts there are more detailed comments on these amps and other candidates as well, but specifically the D802 has an odd design decision in using an older multi-purpose audio chip for USB which does not support modern high bit rates, whilst also not using the other capabilities of that chip. The D8 PCM option is by contrast an inexpensive but relatively modern and quite respected dedicated USB chip. The xmos USB implementation is better still.
Regarding ease of use I use Linux myself and with that the D8 xmos USB, and in fact the USB of any of these amps I've tried, all 'just work' and work well without special drivers. For Windows audio I can't offer any useful advice.
All of these amps use I2S internally for digital transport within the amp. None offer I2S external interfaces. Both the amps discussed here offer the same high quality receiver chip for converting external SPDIF to internal I2S so trying to bypass these with some sort of diy direct I2S connection would be ...... unusual.
I haven't listened to the Q5 myself. If you want subjective listening reports you may do better reading the french home cinema forum where there is a lot of interest on these DDA amps. From memory the Q5 was not so highly regarded and I picked the v200 to try out of the Ti DDA stable and the v200 uses the TAS5614.
I prefer the D8 and D802 (but only if the D802 is spdif fed) to the v200 but that opinion is by no means universal and some folks prefer the v200. It may be speaker and music taste dependent, the v200 is more powerful and *in my system* sounds fuller and more authoritative as well. The STA326 amps sound essentially identical to each other and, again in my system, are more detailed have better low level dynamics. I listen mainly to acoustic music where the STA326 shines for me, if I listened more to metal and rock I might use the v200 more.
My next DDA purchase is likely to be the F1 amp from Allo which is probably going to use the TAS5634 when it finally comes out. There are quite a few of us who have been waiting a while for this, it is delayed but hopefully will be something special.
<<FDA ALLO "F1">> - 30081596 - sur le forum <<Amplificateurs Integres>> - 1030 - du site Homecinema-fr.com
I just bought a second STA326 - I already have the YJ HiFi 2.0 amp so I thought I'd try the same amp in 2.1. They're so cheap for the SQ level it seems crazy not to ;-)
Unfortunately, this amp is not so good - it has 2 obvious issues.
1. There is an audible "shloc" noise when the amp gets a signal lock, whereas my other one is silent. After the lock, the amp does not have significant background noise - that's as expected.
2. If there is no signal input on any channel then there is no noise when changing the input selection but there is a significant background noise - a mix of pink noise and whine. This happens with a noisy 24 5A smps psu and a low noise 21V 4A linear supply.
With a signal input on one and the other two with nothing, the two have the same noise and the one has the shloc and no background noise, so it isn't a configuration thing. It seems likely it's poor connections between the AK4113 and STA326. I don't want to open it to investigate cos there is a factory sticker across the upper and lower halves of the case
I assume this means this particular amp has been poorly made and I should return it. The other one had the speaker connections wired in reverse (left is right) and out of phase so it seems quality control is non existent. Not surprising given the price but a pita nonetheless.
Unfortunately, I've also found that while I can change the crossover frequency in 20Hz steps from 80 to 360, I can find no way to independently control the sub channel volume so I'm going to need some power resistors to match them. Meh.
Anyone else had issues with these YJ amps?
Unfortunately, this amp is not so good - it has 2 obvious issues.
1. There is an audible "shloc" noise when the amp gets a signal lock, whereas my other one is silent. After the lock, the amp does not have significant background noise - that's as expected.
2. If there is no signal input on any channel then there is no noise when changing the input selection but there is a significant background noise - a mix of pink noise and whine. This happens with a noisy 24 5A smps psu and a low noise 21V 4A linear supply.
With a signal input on one and the other two with nothing, the two have the same noise and the one has the shloc and no background noise, so it isn't a configuration thing. It seems likely it's poor connections between the AK4113 and STA326. I don't want to open it to investigate cos there is a factory sticker across the upper and lower halves of the case
I assume this means this particular amp has been poorly made and I should return it. The other one had the speaker connections wired in reverse (left is right) and out of phase so it seems quality control is non existent. Not surprising given the price but a pita nonetheless.
Unfortunately, I've also found that while I can change the crossover frequency in 20Hz steps from 80 to 360, I can find no way to independently control the sub channel volume so I'm going to need some power resistors to match them. Meh.
Anyone else had issues with these YJ amps?
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Hi JP,
Yes, quality costs, but I wanted to try cheapo ones to see if FDA can compete. Now I know even a cheapo 288RMB (plus shipping, plus linear supply, plus mods) DOES compete at FAR less cost, I think I will very likely buy a quality one in due course. It's just a shame the 308RMB one is worse than the 288RMB one. But then again, the difference is roughly the same price as a Big Mac here. ;-)
And when I let my patient wife hear the "issues" with the second one she just gave me a "you are way too fussy" look. I now think I'm exaggerating my disappointment, given the disposable prices.
Yes, quality costs, but I wanted to try cheapo ones to see if FDA can compete. Now I know even a cheapo 288RMB (plus shipping, plus linear supply, plus mods) DOES compete at FAR less cost, I think I will very likely buy a quality one in due course. It's just a shame the 308RMB one is worse than the 288RMB one. But then again, the difference is roughly the same price as a Big Mac here. ;-)
And when I let my patient wife hear the "issues" with the second one she just gave me a "you are way too fussy" look. I now think I'm exaggerating my disappointment, given the disposable prices.
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Add up all the money spent on cheap FDA amps and then check what a good quality one costs
Well, what good quality FDA do you suggest trying then?
Comparing FDA:
Is there any SQ difference betw open loop amp vs closed loop amp?
Is it true open-loop amp are more dynamic than closed-loop amp , mention on some other thread? However closed loop are more "audiophile", less distorsion, more PSRR?
Heard STA326/STA328 is open loop amp - read that they all require really good power supplies. Whereas TAS5614A is closed loop direct digital amp, have analog feedback. what is the issue on analog feedback?
As primary priority is SQ during pure digital source from Toslink & USB:
I am trying to choose whether to purchase Alientek D8 or I.AM.D V200.
Those tried D8, how is your conclusion on SQ, consider its STA326/STA328 0.05% THD (max 80W Stereo/4Ω) existed since 2005? for V200, it uses TAS5614A 0.01~0.03% THD (max 150W Stereo/4Ω) more recent around 2010.
Secondary priority: add-on features
D8: Xmos U8 USB I2S I/O & STA328 DDX with Bass & treble settings, auto-power-on/ff, whereas V200 has with wifi DLNA support on spotify, uses CM6631A I2S I/O (is Xmos U8 a better choice?) I will have laptop output to usb.
If D8 & V200 cost the same, which would you pick, and why?!?
Is there any SQ difference betw open loop amp vs closed loop amp?
Is it true open-loop amp are more dynamic than closed-loop amp , mention on some other thread? However closed loop are more "audiophile", less distorsion, more PSRR?
Heard STA326/STA328 is open loop amp - read that they all require really good power supplies. Whereas TAS5614A is closed loop direct digital amp, have analog feedback. what is the issue on analog feedback?
As primary priority is SQ during pure digital source from Toslink & USB:
I am trying to choose whether to purchase Alientek D8 or I.AM.D V200.
Those tried D8, how is your conclusion on SQ, consider its STA326/STA328 0.05% THD (max 80W Stereo/4Ω) existed since 2005? for V200, it uses TAS5614A 0.01~0.03% THD (max 150W Stereo/4Ω) more recent around 2010.
Secondary priority: add-on features
D8: Xmos U8 USB I2S I/O & STA328 DDX with Bass & treble settings, auto-power-on/ff, whereas V200 has with wifi DLNA support on spotify, uses CM6631A I2S I/O (is Xmos U8 a better choice?) I will have laptop output to usb.
If D8 & V200 cost the same, which would you pick, and why?!?
The YJ are on the bottom. D802 and the others are already way better. I would rather spend three times the price of an YJ if I get a decent amp in return like the D802. Slowly the normal established audio brands joined the bandwagon and as predicted: FDA is here to stay. No strange thing with almost all sources being digital (and lower cost helps a little too). It is only logical to go this route .
At the moment I use a Denon PMA50 which I like. No issues, good sound quality, good looks, good protection (speaker relay!), a rotary volume control which is a must for me and enough inputs. I keep trying various FDA though. The technology is still developing as it was designed for low price. Now it is gaining market quality comes creeping in
* If you can find one : Wadia PowerDAC 151 was one of the best I tried till now. Despite being old technology it was very good. Probably implementation makes the difference, not just the chip set.
At the moment I am modding the old friend Nuforce DDA-100 just to check if it can be improved. I think this device (a pioneer in FDA) is a style icon in audio and certainly the most easy to operate of all devices I ever owned. Shallow in bass but maybe that can be improved.
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I would never buy any digital gear that used a CS8416 (spdif to I2S) because it's a high jitter part (>200ps), so I would not buy a V200. It's likely to have a soft top end - mushy cymbal decay, fluffy jazz brush, less stereo image definition, and the loss of all the musical definition that comes from low jitter digital data - because of one bad part in the chain. Some people like this sound though, so YMMV.
I just bought an ADC to use with my YJ FDA that uses a reasonable ADC chip, the PCM1802, which outputs I2S, knowing I can upgrade the clock it uses to get low jitter. Unfortunately, that I2S is turned into SPDIF using a CS8406, another high jitter part, so there's no point in upgrading the clock cos the CS84XX will mash it anyway.
I bought the YJ because it uses AK4113 for spdif to I2S. The D8 uses a comparable part, the WM8805 ~50ps.
What I'd like is AK4118 => SRC4392 => FDA, with Crystek or Tent Lab clocks etc. Then jitter could perhaps be measured in fs not ps and at that level, it arguably has no effect on sound quality.
Can you buy and return? If so, then I'd buy a D8 and a D802 and return the one I liked least. If not, then the D8. My 2 cents.
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They are the cheapest in a box so the bottom in that way - but not the bottom for sound (?) cos the spdif receiver is superior to the one in the V200. There is no escaping the jitter created by CS84XX parts. They suck. Super sucky. Bad Cirrus Logic. Bad bad bad. (As you can tell, I don't like them).
Once you've run the signal through an ASRC the jitter at the point of SRC is baked into the signal. No amount of clock purity beyond that point is going to buy you much if that ASRC's jitter rejection isn't immaculate.
I forgot to ask - have you done anything with the I2S or spdif on your FDAs? Happy as is?
No jitter can be introduced as long as you are in the digital domain. ASRC don't introduce jitter, and consequently, no jitter can be "frozen" into the signal.
While in the digital domain, rounding errors due to calculation or bit loss and errors is the only thing that could happen to the data stream.
Reception of s/pdif and extraction of clock is a special case but it is not the data that contains jitter, it's the clock!!!!
16/214/32 whatever bit words containing PCM music information can not, while staying in PCM format, adopt jitter - it's impossible. Why - because the sampling speed thus the clock is implied. Its self evident as you can even store this dat in a disc and no jitter occurs - talk about time error.
An ASRC introduce rounding errors, not jitter.
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So far I've only played with the output side of my FDAs, no tweaks to the digital stuff. I have planned to install an upsampling filter though, no progress on that so far...
Looks like you've a misunderstanding of how ASRCs operate. Of course they don't introduce jitter but they don't perfectly reject jitter either. ASRCs have a circuit to estimate the correct output clock instant (called a 'ratio estimator') and this must operate in the analog domain. Bruno Putzeys fills in some of the details here : The pros and cons of SRC for jitter reduction.
Note he says : 'Both the input and output frequencies are analogue quantities (time=analogue) so the ratio estimator entails an implicit analogue-to-digital converion. ASRC's are not purely digital, even though you can write them entirely in DSP code.'
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