HM Wrote
What the F*** are you rambling on about.
And before your next post make sure the grammer you write reads correctly and makes perfect sense in ENGLISH LANGUAGE. Most time your ramblings and grammer are unreadable in the common language used on this forum. Or perhaps use a better German to English translation programme.
Why not just build a pair the FH Mk3 cabinets install a pair of Fostex FE126En drivers, as I have done, and go listen to them and be amazed what they can do.
I can drive these with a little 6EM7 SE amp (around 1½W) to volumes that the neighbours would complain before distortion sets in and bass for most folk is more than adequate from these little speakers. My room is 5m x 4m x 2.8m high plus large bay window. With a performance like this who gives a hoot about actual measured xmax and the like. Certainly not me and I suspect most other folk that build these speakers.
What the F*** are you rambling on about.
And before your next post make sure the grammer you write reads correctly and makes perfect sense in ENGLISH LANGUAGE. Most time your ramblings and grammer are unreadable in the common language used on this forum. Or perhaps use a better German to English translation programme.Why not just build a pair the FH Mk3 cabinets install a pair of Fostex FE126En drivers, as I have done, and go listen to them and be amazed what they can do.
I can drive these with a little 6EM7 SE amp (around 1½W) to volumes that the neighbours would complain before distortion sets in and bass for most folk is more than adequate from these little speakers. My room is 5m x 4m x 2.8m high plus large bay window. With a performance like this who gives a hoot about actual measured xmax and the like. Certainly not me and I suspect most other folk that build these speakers.
Toppsy,
whats up?
do you know the needed stroke for the Mk3 with Fe126?
If not, don´t write, i know the constructor has made it,
why he don´t show us that this driver make sence in this construction.
i made special experience with a few people here, i am only discuss
my experience and knowledge to prevent forum useres to be disapointed.
sorry my english is 35 years old school english, write me what you don´t understand.
whats up?
do you know the needed stroke for the Mk3 with Fe126?
If not, don´t write, i know the constructor has made it,
why he don´t show us that this driver make sence in this construction.
i made special experience with a few people here, i am only discuss
my experience and knowledge to prevent forum useres to be disapointed.
sorry my english is 35 years old school english, write me what you don´t understand.
Oh, that does it. Horst, by long perseverance you have finally attained a level of arrogance I have seldom seen equalled, never surpassed. Chris and Colin have personal experience with this enclosure and like the results. You have none at all, yet you still have the temerity to inform them that they are mistaken? Bloody hell fire.
Let me remind you of a few salient points.
-You are, once again, conveniently ignoring the fact that the 126 is merely an option for FH3. The Mark Audio drivers are in fact the baseline, but the Fostex unit may be used if people wish to do so. Unlike yourself Horst, neither Dave, ChrisB, nor I presume to tell people what they should or should not like. That would be communism, and the height of arrogance.
-From a purely technical basis, the 126 has limited linear dynamic range in FH3. From a purely technical basis it has limited linear dynamic range in most cabinets. As far as I am aware, nobody has ever suggested otherwise. However, you never seem to understand that the majority of 126 users (and as Fostex have sold thousands of 126s, there are quite a lot of them) couldn't care less. It is a sacrifice they are willing to make to obtain whatever benefits they feel the Fostex brings for them elsewhere. For your information, as you seem to have forgotten, that is fair enough. They are entitled to their opinion without being insulted by you.
Let me remind you of a few salient points.
-You are, once again, conveniently ignoring the fact that the 126 is merely an option for FH3. The Mark Audio drivers are in fact the baseline, but the Fostex unit
-From a purely technical basis, the 126 has limited linear dynamic range in FH3. From a purely technical basis it has limited linear dynamic range in most cabinets. As far as I am aware, nobody has ever suggested otherwise. However, you never seem to understand that the majority of 126 users (and as Fostex have sold thousands of 126s, there are quite a lot of them) couldn't care less. It is a sacrifice they are willing to make to obtain whatever benefits they feel the Fostex brings for them elsewhere. For your information, as you seem to have forgotten, that is fair enough. They are entitled to their opinion without being insulted by you.
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HM,
Do us all a favour on this forum and GO AWAY to your own little corner of the world. Why would AJ Horn simulation be of any significance here as (as far as I know) these speakers were not designed on this software. And who is to say that the AJ Horn software is the last word in simulations and is the definitive answer to horn speaker designs least of all the Frugal Horn. Certainly NOT YOU.
Just go away and contemplate your naval in some corner of Germany and listen to your own design Frankenstein speakers.
Do us all a favour on this forum and GO AWAY to your own little corner of the world. Why would AJ Horn simulation be of any significance here as (as far as I know) these speakers were not designed on this software. And who is to say that the AJ Horn software is the last word in simulations and is the definitive answer to horn speaker designs least of all the Frugal Horn. Certainly NOT YOU.
Just go away and contemplate your naval in some corner of Germany and listen to your own design Frankenstein speakers.
I was under the impression that is what people do anyway.
Well, I am gratified that I have brought a smile to your day. Yes, your posts above are extremely arrogant Horst, just as many of your posts tend to be. I am not alone in noting this. You have no personal experience with this enclosure, yet you see fit to inform people who actually have built them that they are mistaken in finding the performance adequate for their requirements. By any definition, that is extremely rude / arrogant. Please get over yourself, and accept the fact that other people are happy. Rather than attacking them, or pouring out scorn & derision, how about being happy for them?
I see you have seen fit to ignore every single point I made above. So I shall repeat them.
1/ As very clearly stated, the 126 is merely an option for FH3. The Mark Audio drivers are in fact the drivers it was primarily designed for, but the Fostex unit
2/ From a technical basis, the 126 has limited linear dynamic range in FH3. From a technical basis it has limited linear dynamic range in most cabinets. As far as I am aware, nobody has ever suggested otherwise.
3/The majority of FE126E / FE126En owners couldn't care less about the limited Xmax. It is not a priority for them. Fostex have sold many thousands of these drive units, which suggests that a large number of people are happy enough with the results they get from this / these drive units. You may not be -fair enough. I may not be either in many cases. Also fair enough. But what you may prefer, or indeed, what I may prefer, is irrelevant. What is relevant is that they are happy. And that too is fair enough. As I have observed several times, people are entitled to like what they like, without you insulting them for it.
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Horst - sidestepping the debate over the FH3, to recalibrate your position with regards to the FE126E's limited xMax "stroke" disqualifying it from use in a BLH (my inference from your posts), I cordially invite you to discuss the matter on Ed Schilling's forum.
Of course, you just might enjoy the ensuing abuse, but certainly not as much as we would watching it.
Of course, you just might enjoy the ensuing abuse
, but certainly not as much as we would watching it.
>>> From a purely technical basis it has limited linear dynamic range in most cabinets.
I think hm has good reason to ask what he does. I think he has a right to express his interest in a designs apparent limitations. The discussion could manage to improve things further imo. No one said the FH3 is perfect but it does present a nice set of compromises. I think we all need to hear a pair before making conclusions. I am certainly piqued by it's tidy appearance. Having said that, i own a pair of 127e's in a simple slotted box and recognize its limitations compared to larger speakers. But they do have a certain sweetness that could capture the heart of audiophiles looking for its specific character. I'd never want to put the kybosh on a design, hm's or otherwise, just because on paper it has limitations.
LOL about suggesting Ed's forum... in the right room, properly setup, many speakers with apparent limitations can present music in a compelling fashion.
I think hm has good reason to ask what he does. I think he has a right to express his interest in a designs apparent limitations. The discussion could manage to improve things further imo. No one said the FH3 is perfect but it does present a nice set of compromises. I think we all need to hear a pair before making conclusions. I am certainly piqued by it's tidy appearance. Having said that, i own a pair of 127e's in a simple slotted box and recognize its limitations compared to larger speakers. But they do have a certain sweetness that could capture the heart of audiophiles looking for its specific character. I'd never want to put the kybosh on a design, hm's or otherwise, just because on paper it has limitations.
LOL about suggesting Ed's forum... in the right room, properly setup, many speakers with apparent limitations can present music in a compelling fashion.
I don't want to start all over again, but Horst why don't you build a pair of MK3's with the Fostex FE126En drivers, and hear/listen what the "fuss" is all about.
I have read of lot of different threads, and you don't make yourself very popular. Maybe you could be a little bit less "agressive" in the way you write/talk to other people.
I have build the Mk3's (with FE126En), and absolutely love them. I think that many others feel the same way.
If it sounds good to your ears, what more do you need...(i can think of other things besides audio..)
Gerard.
I have read of lot of different threads, and you don't make yourself very popular. Maybe you could be a little bit less "agressive" in the way you write/talk to other people.
I have build the Mk3's (with FE126En), and absolutely love them. I think that many others feel the same way.
If it sounds good to your ears, what more do you need...(i can think of other things besides audio..
)Gerard.
Jeff - the time stamp on this post will hint at my conflict, and finally, failure in trying to resist a sarcastic comment on final sentence above - as Horst as already repeated documented (for those of us capable of understanding his measures/predictions and twisted Teutonic/English translations), his designs have none or at least fewer of the types of limitations under consideration
Scott and Martin should join the conversation as well - how many targets do you think a trained sniper sharp-shooter could hit in rapid-fire
got a few myself for which I'm glad I haven't seen the math/measures - the cognitive dissonance would be hard for this old sponge-brain to take
Frankly, I doubt Horst would like FH3, above all with the 126, although he may prefer it with, say, the CHP70 or one of the other MA drivers. He has a different taste and different priorities, and let's face it; it really isn't aimed at people like himself.
I once used the phrase 'my first horn' to describe FH3, and that does sum up the basic priorities for the cabinet quite well: simple, not too large, relatively easy to make, tolerant of a reasonably wide range of drive units, and not too frightening to people new to DIY but who want something more interesting than a simple BR. It was never meant to be the last word in back-horns, although we did want it to improve on the original Frugel-Horn; the general consensus to date is it has achieved that.
I once used the phrase 'my first horn' to describe FH3, and that does sum up the basic priorities for the cabinet quite well: simple, not too large, relatively easy to make, tolerant of a reasonably wide range of drive units, and not too frightening to people new to DIY but who want something more interesting than a simple BR. It was never meant to be the last word in back-horns, although we did want it to improve on the original Frugel-Horn; the general consensus to date is it has achieved that.
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Here you are Horst. 1w/1m half space with a variety of drivers. These in practise will be pessamistic as in room the driver will be loaded 1/4 or 1/8th space, giving respectivily ~3 or 6dB more headroom.
Our approach is different than yours. I've seen far too many people informed (or preducdiced) of what they will hear by looking at charts & graphs, and then hearing what they interpreted from those charts & graphs (which show far less than the whole story)
I much prefer to see people evaluate on what they actually hear. A trained ear/brain is a much more powerful tool than a mic & an analyser (to paraphrase Toole).
One of the reasons i always listen to a speaker before i measure it (if an XO is needed i may measure 1st to get an idea on XO design)
People have been expressing opinions that are consistent with what we have heard, so it is probably safe to post these excursion sims (which i haven't seen before today, trusting in Scott's judgements & design acumen)
dave
Our approach is different than yours. I've seen far too many people informed (or preducdiced) of what they will hear by looking at charts & graphs, and then hearing what they interpreted from those charts & graphs (which show far less than the whole story)
I much prefer to see people evaluate on what they actually hear. A trained ear/brain is a much more powerful tool than a mic & an analyser (to paraphrase Toole).
One of the reasons i always listen to a speaker before i measure it (if an XO is needed i may measure 1st to get an idea on XO design)
People have been expressing opinions that are consistent with what we have heard, so it is probably safe to post these excursion sims (which i haven't seen before today, trusting in Scott's judgements & design acumen)
dave
Attachments
actually a set of ears & brain do constitute a mic and analyser - certainly the former has its known limitations, but we're far from fully understanding how the latter works
Jeff,
The charts show the amount that the cone deflects against frequency, with 1 watt input. If you look at the FE126 it deflects under 1 mm in the loweat frequencies. FE126En has xMax of 0.35mm. That means on peaks above about 90 dB will start to go out of the linear region of the motor. If you put an SPL meter on your system, you find that it gets prtty loud before the peaks start to distort, and you'd need to turn it up even more for it to become objectionable.
dave
Let me finish that for you... at levels most people who choose this driver & box will not encounter often. FE126 has examplary overload characteristic and you probably won't really start noticing until you start hitting 100 dB peaks (~106 if corner loaded), so has been said over many tims. And the limits are only below 150 Hz. Who cares?
dave