FR125S post break-in T/S parameters

[morbo]

Also, have a look at this:

And note the distribution of the human voice. I think you'll agree that Leonard Cohen does not often hit the soprano range (whose fundamentals top out at ~ 1.5k), so I don't see how bringing in a tweeter above 10k should help much, though I don't doubt your experience with it.

 

[morbo]

Oh and Vikash, great thread, very useful info here!

 

[Cal Weldon]

Please contact me if you want change or replace your drivers.

If Gringo decides to go this route, please call me, and I'll pop up to your place and grab them from you.

They will be in the scratch and dent bin and heavily discounted yes?

Cal

 

[theNoid]

I guess that's why RAW's kits all come with a tweeter.

I may be wrong here so correct me if I am. All of the kits that Al at RAW sells that utilize the CSS drivers AND a tweeter, are using the the WR versions...not FR version. He does in fact sell the FR version, as single driver fullrange kit.

I know my equipment here is far from "hifi" but those that have heard my little FR125s speakers have had nothing but great things to say about them. Usually, the comments center on the bottom end and the fact that the vocal range comes through so clean.

That's the fun thing about audio DIY is that there is no "perfect" approach, especially when you throw in the human factor. Hopefully they come around a bit for you and if not, have fun continuing the pursuit of audio bliss my friend.

Noidster

 

[GringoAudio]

Thanks

No doubt I am partly deaf at 47 years old. Interesting info.

 

[audio3000]

Here what I found so far with my FR125S pairs. Their temporary home is in a BR box of size about H:22in, W:18in, D:14in. I just recall this from memory. Could be off couple of inches.

1. They were quite plain sounding when first turned on but was good after about 40 hours of exercise.
2. They seems to me a set of fast speakers. In the current cab, they lose coherence if driven by high speed amps (Accuphase and my DIY current source output amp similar to Nelson's design). It seems to me the mid and high are faster than the low. I couldn't hear it for long. But if I use my Yamaha CA410 with cranked up bias and AudioInnovation tube amp, it sounds very good. I hear it for hours and keep going. I am planning to do more testings to understand why these amps makes such a big difference.
3. It peaks around 6.5KHz. Don't know if this matters.

 

[planet10]

I have measured many drivers before and after break-in and not seen any significant shifts. Just curious for more data.

For the one set of broken in drivers i tested, the differences were less than my meaurement error (these drivers sat for a week unused before testing).

dave

 

[planet10]

Re: System is okay..I think

Is true full range the Holy Grail?

A true FR is a very daunting task...

dave

 

[planet10]

I've had 20 tru here... here are the out of the box measures. I used FuzzMeasure & added mass.


Sorted by measured Cone Mass

Number Fs Re Qms Qes Qts Vas Cone mass Sd dB comp cm/dyne BL
2 73.03 6.80 3.5796 1.1593 0.8757 3.9782 4.2658 50.2655 83.3634 1.11E-06 3.3897
18 75.28 6.90 5.7200 0.9142 0.7882 3.5894 4.4496 50.2655 84.3435 1.00E-06 3.9871
4 74.08 6.80 5.0246 1.1376 0.9276 3.6618 4.5040 50.2655 83.2715 1.02E-06 3.5413
22 75.16 6.70 4.9142 0.9739 0.8128 3.5344 4.5332 50.2655 83.9810 9.89E-07 3.8391
21 75.20 6.80 5.1025 0.9024 0.7668 3.5241 4.5416 50.2655 84.3064 9.86E-07 4.0227
10 82.10 6.80 6.1270 0.9659 0.8344 2.8899 4.6465 50.2655 84.2932 8.09E-07 4.1094
19 75.38 6.90 5.6304 0.8744 0.7569 3.4215 4.6555 50.2655 84.3461 9.58E-07 4.1728
3 73.36 6.90 5.5569 1.0792 0.9037 3.5979 4.6744 50.2655 83.2967 1.01E-06 3.7129
14 74.53 7.00 5.3559 0.9346 0.7730 3.4796 4.6827 50.2655 83.9824 9.74E-07 4.0542
25 74.06 6.80 4.8264 0.9369 0.7846 3.4860 4.7337 50.2655 83.8972 9.76E-07 3.9999
13 77.28 7.00 5.6756 0.9485 0.8127 3.1914 4.7488 50.2655 84.0148 8.93E-07 4.1267
12 81.84 6.90 5.8948 0.9435 0.8133 2.7752 4.8693 50.2655 84.1779 7.77E-07 4.2808
1 70.99 6.80 5.1896 1.0767 0.8917 3.6398 4.9343 50.2655 82.9291 1.02E-06 3.7297
16 76.02 7.20 5.9826 0.9136 0.7925 3.1598 4.9565 50.2655 83.9203 8.84E-07 4.3211
24 71.07 6.70 4.7223 0.9440 0.7868 3.6017 4.9752 50.2655 83.4694 1.01E-06 3.9724
15 71.50 7.00 5.9231 0.8332 0.7306 3.5474 4.9908 50.2655 84.0242 9.93E-07 4.3417
23 75.29 6.70 4.2480 0.9296 0.7627 3.1936 4.9996 50.2655 83.7654 8.94E-07 4.1303
17 74.71 6.90 4.6597 0.8907 0.7478 3.1948 5.0756 50.2655 83.8519 8.94E-07 4.2978
11 77.10 7.00 5.9380 0.8794 0.7660 2.8199 5.3994 50.2655 83.7755 7.89E-07 4.5647
20 71.16 6.70 4.5718 0.9185 0.7648 3.1065 5.7538 50.2655 82.9624 8.69E-07 4.3336

Average from all 20

all 74.96 6.87 5.23 0.96 0.80 3.37 4.82 50.27 83.80 9.43E-07 4.05
all 14.8% 7.3% 48.7% 34.0% 24.5% 35.7% 30.9% 0.0% 1.7% 35.7% 29.0%

Ave less top2/bot2
75.16 6.87 5.30 0.96 0.81 3.37 4.78 50.27 83.85 9.43E-07 4.04
(max-min)/ave
14.8% 7.3% 48.0% 34.1% 24.4% 35.7% 31.1% 0.0% 1.7% 35.7% 29.1%

Average set eliminating mass outliers, then Fs outliers (a set of 12)
Ave less top2/bot2
74.71 6.89 5.24 0.95 0.80 3.42 4.76 50.27 83.89 9.56E-07 4.05
(max-min)/ave
7.7% 7.3% 33.1% 32.2% 24.7% 14.7% 12.0% 0.0% 1.3% 14.7% 19.8%

Average set eliminating mass outliers, then Fs outliers, then Qt outliers (a set of 8)

Ave less top2/bot2
75.37 6.89 5.22 0.93 0.78 3.37 4.73 50.27 84.03 9.44E-07 4.08
(max-min)/ave
4.3% 7.3% 33.2% 10.7% 7.1% 11.1% 9.9% 0.0% 0.7% 11.1% 11.8%


dave

Note: despite lining up in mono-space in my WP, it doesn't in my 2 main browsers... cutting and pasting and setting to a mono-space font (ie courier) should line it up into columns

 

[Vikash]

Note: despite lining up in mono-space in my WP, it doesn't in my 2 main browsers... cutting and pasting and setting to a mono-space font (ie courier) should line it up into columns

Sorted by measured Cone Mass

Number  Fs        Re     Qms       Qes       Qts       Vas     Cone mass   Sd         dB      comp cm/dyne    BL
2      73.03    6.80    3.5796    1.1593    0.8757    3.9782    4.2658    50.2655    83.3634    1.11E-06    3.3897
18     75.28    6.90    5.7200    0.9142    0.7882    3.5894    4.4496    50.2655    84.3435    1.00E-06    3.9871
4      74.08    6.80    5.0246    1.1376    0.9276    3.6618    4.5040    50.2655    83.2715    1.02E-06    3.5413
22     75.16    6.70    4.9142    0.9739    0.8128    3.5344    4.5332    50.2655    83.9810    9.89E-07    3.8391
21     75.20    6.80    5.1025    0.9024    0.7668    3.5241    4.5416    50.2655    84.3064    9.86E-07    4.0227
10     82.10    6.80    6.1270    0.9659    0.8344    2.8899    4.6465    50.2655    84.2932    8.09E-07    4.1094
19     75.38    6.90    5.6304    0.8744    0.7569    3.4215    4.6555    50.2655    84.3461    9.58E-07    4.1728
3      73.36    6.90    5.5569    1.0792    0.9037    3.5979    4.6744    50.2655    83.2967    1.01E-06    3.7129
14     74.53    7.00    5.3559    0.9346    0.7730    3.4796    4.6827    50.2655    83.9824    9.74E-07    4.0542
25     74.06    6.80    4.8264    0.9369    0.7846    3.4860    4.7337    50.2655    83.8972    9.76E-07    3.9999
13     77.28    7.00    5.6756    0.9485    0.8127    3.1914    4.7488    50.2655    84.0148    8.93E-07    4.1267
12     81.84    6.90    5.8948    0.9435    0.8133    2.7752    4.8693    50.2655    84.1779    7.77E-07    4.2808
1      70.99    6.80    5.1896    1.0767    0.8917    3.6398    4.9343    50.2655    82.9291    1.02E-06    3.7297
16     76.02    7.20    5.9826    0.9136    0.7925    3.1598    4.9565    50.2655    83.9203    8.84E-07    4.3211
24     71.07    6.70    4.7223    0.9440    0.7868    3.6017    4.9752    50.2655    83.4694    1.01E-06    3.9724
15     71.50    7.00    5.9231    0.8332    0.7306    3.5474    4.9908    50.2655    84.0242    9.93E-07    4.3417
23     75.29    6.70    4.2480    0.9296    0.7627    3.1936    4.9996    50.2655    83.7654    8.94E-07    4.1303
17     74.71    6.90    4.6597    0.8907    0.7478    3.1948    5.0756    50.2655    83.8519    8.94E-07    4.2978
11     77.10    7.00    5.9380    0.8794    0.7660    2.8199    5.3994    50.2655    83.7755    7.89E-07    4.5647
20     71.16    6.70    4.5718    0.9185    0.7648    3.1065    5.7538    50.2655    82.9624    8.69E-07    4.3336

Average from all 20

all    74.96    6.87    5.23      0.96      0.80      3.37      4.82      50.27      83.80      9.43E-07    4.05
all    14.8%    7.3%    48.7%     34.0%     24.5%     35.7%     30.9%     0.0%       1.7%       35.7%       29.0%

Ave less top2/bot2
       75.16    6.87    5.30      0.96      0.81      3.37      4.78      50.27      83.85      9.43E-07    4.04
(max-min)/ave
      14.8%     7.3%    48.0%     34.1%     24.4%     35.7%     31.1%     0.0%       1.7%       35.7%       29.1%

Average set eliminating mass outliers, then Fs outliers  (a set of 12)
Ave less top2/bot2
       74.71    6.89    5.24      0.95      0.80      3.42      4.76      50.27      83.89      9.56E-07    4.05
(max-min)/ave
       7.7%     7.3%    33.1%     32.2%     24.7%     14.7%     12.0%     0.0%       1.3%       14.7%       19.8%

Average set eliminating mass outliers, then Fs outliers, then Qt outliers (a set of 8)

Ave less top2/bot2
       75.37    6.89    5.22      0.93      0.78       3.37     4.73      50.27      84.03       9.44E-07    4.08
(max-min)/ave
       4.3%     7.3%    33.2%     10.7%     7.1%      11.1%     9.9%      0.0%       0.7%        11.1%       11.8%

Did you get my reply emails Dave?

 

[MCH]

Well I have the FR125 in the mini Onken boxes. I've listened to them for a month now and think they are quite nice. They are detailed, clear and have a very nice sound stage. The speakers disappear when the music is playing. I'm using a digital Panasonic SA-XR50 reciever to power them. I know there seems to be a lot of accolades for the bass, but quite frankly I could not live without my Tempest sub integrated into this mix.
I just have to think of a finish scheme for my cabinets. Will post a pic when all done.

 

[planet10]

Did you get my reply emails Dave?

Yes... was busy all yesterday sorting thru the last 6 palletts of Monsoon bits that we cleared out of the North American serivice facility... anyone wants Monsoon bits this is the last dance...

I was thinking of the code tag but i was under the impression it had been disabled.

dave

 

[Vikash]

Dave, I measured them all again today. I used 20g added mass this time instead of 4.5g and incidentally this made little difference to the VAS results. All the drivers consistently measured higher Fs by a few Hz which I'll attribute to the warmer climate in my testing area. Other than that I'm still getting different results to you, although they appear more consistent with that of npdang.

	fs	vas	qts	qms	qes
a	66.614	5.726	0.683	4.594	0.802
b	65.457	5.995	0.752	5.863	0.863
c	66.839	6.026	0.686	5.289	0.788
d	63.480	6.003	0.699	5.339	0.805

avg	65.598	5.938	0.705	5.271	0.815
npdang	64.015	4.699	0.714	4.240	0.860
dave	75.370	3.370	0.780	5.220	0.930

 

[DanWiggins]

Perhaps I missed it, but what drive level did everyone measure at? The higher the drive level, the lower the Fs/greater the Vas. We regularly measure our drivers at 1W (2V or 2.83V into 4 or 8 Ohms, respectively), that will result in pretty significant changes versus the typical 50 mV signal...

For example, one driver we build for another OEM measures out at 29 Hz with the Woofer Tester (50 mV), but when measured at 2V (1W), measures out at 24 Hz, basically on-spec.

Dan Wiggins
Adire Audio

 

[GringoAudio]

They still need a tweeter .....

....and maybe a notch....

 

[planet10]

Perhaps I missed it, but what drive level did everyone measure at? The higher the drive level, the lower the Fs/greater the Vas. We regularly measure our drivers at 1W (2V or 2.83V into 4 or 8 Ohms, respectively), that will result in pretty significant changes versus the typical 50 mV signal...

guess it is time to rejig my jig... i'm using the headphone out on my G4, certanly not 1 W....

dave

 

[DavidH]

Dan:

one driver we build for another OEM measures out at 29 Hz with the Woofer Tester (50 mV), but when measured at 2V (1W), measures out at 24 Hz

Wow! Is there a standard drive level?

If 50mV is not standard, do you think it might be possible to apply a conversion factor to the 'Woofer Tester 2' results?

TIA ... /Dave

 

[Vikash]

which leads to the next question, is the chosen box design still valid when used at higher power levels...

 

[Geek]

which leads to the next question, is the chosen box design still valid when used at higher power levels...

From my own tinkering and gleaning from audio forums, that's an issue.

If one wants to run their 500W HTiB flat-out, a bass reflex (incl. the Onken) would be a poor choice with most any driver.

But if you're like me and wanting to get the most out of a 3 watt SE triode amp, sealed enclosures will be a dissappointment.

 

[soongsc]

which leads to the next question, is the chosen box design still valid when used at higher power levels...

I have a box design that lowers the resonant frequency of the system. It might also solve the problem throughout different power levels. But I have not tested at higher power levels yet. Got my fingers crossed.