He says there is no such thing as satellites. He then just quote me:
GPS, Towers, And Technology
What we are being told in respect to GPS technology is that trilateration, being the basis of this, is what explains how cell phones determine our locations and help us navigate. What we ACTUALLY know is that towers use this technology as well. Trilateration is basically a term used to explain "satellite" signals which employs spherical "points of connection." There is nothing "new here" except their explanation of this ONLY occuring with satellites.
The point is this: "trilateration" is basically using 3 points of references to establish someone's location. Triangulation is doing the same thing but in respect to towers.
Trilateration, in geometry, is the process of determining or relative locations of points by measurement of distances, using the geometry of circles, spheres or triangles and is the “basis” of GPS.
Triangulation, in trigonometry and geometry, is the process of determining the location of a point by measuring angles to it from known points at either end of a fixed baseline, rather than measuring distances to the point directly (trilateration).
Trilateration, which uses measurements of distances, and triangulation, which uses measurements of angles are both used in determining ones location and implement ground-based technology.
GPS technology was “developed in 1973 and is controlled by the Department of Defense. It originally was run by 24 satellites and became fully operational in 1994. We are told that the design of GPS is based upon similar ground-based radio navigation systems such as LORAN and the Decca Navigator which was developed in the early 1940’s and used during World War II.”
“The United States government created the system, maintains it, and makes it freely accessible to anyone with a GPS receiver.”
LORAN (Long RAnge Navigation) is a “terrestrial navigation system which enables ships and aircraft to determine their position and speed from low frequency radio signals transmitted by fixed and land based radio beacons, using a receiver unit.”
The Decca Navigator System was a “hyperbolic radio navigation system which allowed ships and and aircraft to determine their position by receiving radio signals from fixed navigational beacons. The system used low frequencies from 70 to 129 KHz. It was first deployed by the Royal Navy during World War II when the Allied forces needed a system which could be used to achieve accurate landings.”
Decca “conducted test in cars, driving in the Kingston to verify receiver accuracy in the car installation. It was found possible to navigate within an individual traffic lane.”
We are not dealing with new technology: “In the late 1950s an experimental Decca chain was set up in the United States, in the New York area, to be used for navigating the Vertol 107 helicopters of New York Airways. These helicopters were operating from the principal local airports—John F. Kennedy Airport on Long Island, Newark Airport in New Jersey, LaGuardia Airport in the Borough of Queens, nearer to Manhattan, and a site on the top of the (then) PanAm Building on Park Avenue. Use of Decca was essential because its signals could be received down to sea level, were not subject to the line-of-sight limitations of VOR/DME and did not suffer the slant-range errors that create problems with VOR/DME close to the transmitters.”
Consider that the explanation for interruptions in service for ground-based technology are the same for GPS and Dish/Satellite Network disruptions such as “magnetic storms.”
What many people do not realize is that Google Maps, for instance, uses cell tower triangulation. As recent as 2009 Google released a video demonstrating that GPS was NOT required in determining ones location.
Many of you can use your Android phones and test this out for yourself. Make sure you have GPS turned off and then pull up Google Maps. Notice that it will still produce a fairly accurate result in respect to your location. Essentially, GPS requires WiFi, Cellular Towers, and Internet backbone to pinpoint your location.
Determining one’s location through the use of triangles is nothing new. This dates as far back as the 6th century: “In the 6th century BC the Greek philosopher Thales is recorded as using similar triangles to estimate the height of the pyramids by measuring the length of their shadows and that of his own at the same moment, and comparing the ratios to his height (intercept theorem); and to have estimated the distances to ships at sea as seen from a clifftop, by measuring the horizontal distance traversed by the line-of-sight for a known fall, and scaling up to the height of the whole cliff. Such techniques would have been familiar to the ancient Egyptians.”
The threat of a nuclear attack was the justification for this “new technology.” Consider that “while there were wide needs for accurate navigation in military and civilian sectors, almost none of those was seen as justification for the billions of dollars it would cost in research, development, deployment, and operation for a constellation of navigation satellites. During the Cold War arms race, the nuclear threat to the existence of the United States was the one need that did justify this cost in the view of the United States Congress. This deterrent effect is why GPS was funded. It is also the reason for the ultra secrecy at that time.”
Also, take note that a mid-air collision was orchestrated when one company wanted to take over another in respect to similar technology. "This situation was exacerbated by the workload problems of the Air Traffic Controllers Association (ATCA), under its executive director Francis McDermott, whose members were forced to use radar data on aircraft positions, relaying those positions by radio to the aircraft from their control locations. An example of the problem, cited by experts, was the collision of a Douglas DC8 and a Lockheed Constellation over Staten Island, New York, that—according to some experts—could have been avoided if the aircraft had been Decca equipped and could not only have determined their positions more precisely but would not have suffered from the rho-theta position errors inherent in VOR/DME."
An interesting side note to this "collision" is that, guess who is designing the roll out for the new GPS Block IIIA Satellites? Yep, you guess it. Lockhead Martin.
You may be wondering about the “satellite images” that are produced by Google Maps. These images are simply produced by planes that fly above the earth. If you don’t believe me then believe Mark Aubin, a Software Engineer who works on Google Earth. He is quoted as saying that “Most people are surprised to learn that we have more than one source for our imagery. We collect it via airplane and satellite, but also just about any way you can imagine getting a camera above the Earth's surface: hot air balloons, model airplanes - even kites. The traditional aerial survey involves mounting a special gyroscopic, stabilized camera in the belly of an airplane and flying it at an elevation of between 15,000 feet and 30,000 feet, depending on the resolution of imagery you're interested in. As the plane takes a predefined route over the desired area, it forms a series of parallel lines with about 40 percent overlap between lines and 60 percent overlap in the direction of flight. This overlap of images is what provides us with enough detail to remove distortions caused by the varying shape of the Earth's surface.”
Fundamentally, what we have with GPS is nothing more than a ground-based system that is using an improved technology for determining your location.
GPS, Towers, And Technology
What we are being told in respect to GPS technology is that trilateration, being the basis of this, is what explains how cell phones determine our locations and help us navigate. What we ACTUALLY know is that towers use this technology as well. Trilateration is basically a term used to explain "satellite" signals which employs spherical "points of connection." There is nothing "new here" except their explanation of this ONLY occuring with satellites.
The point is this: "trilateration" is basically using 3 points of references to establish someone's location. Triangulation is doing the same thing but in respect to towers.
Trilateration, in geometry, is the process of determining or relative locations of points by measurement of distances, using the geometry of circles, spheres or triangles and is the “basis” of GPS.
Triangulation, in trigonometry and geometry, is the process of determining the location of a point by measuring angles to it from known points at either end of a fixed baseline, rather than measuring distances to the point directly (trilateration).
Trilateration, which uses measurements of distances, and triangulation, which uses measurements of angles are both used in determining ones location and implement ground-based technology.
GPS technology was “developed in 1973 and is controlled by the Department of Defense. It originally was run by 24 satellites and became fully operational in 1994. We are told that the design of GPS is based upon similar ground-based radio navigation systems such as LORAN and the Decca Navigator which was developed in the early 1940’s and used during World War II.”
“The United States government created the system, maintains it, and makes it freely accessible to anyone with a GPS receiver.”
LORAN (Long RAnge Navigation) is a “terrestrial navigation system which enables ships and aircraft to determine their position and speed from low frequency radio signals transmitted by fixed and land based radio beacons, using a receiver unit.”
The Decca Navigator System was a “hyperbolic radio navigation system which allowed ships and and aircraft to determine their position by receiving radio signals from fixed navigational beacons. The system used low frequencies from 70 to 129 KHz. It was first deployed by the Royal Navy during World War II when the Allied forces needed a system which could be used to achieve accurate landings.”
Decca “conducted test in cars, driving in the Kingston to verify receiver accuracy in the car installation. It was found possible to navigate within an individual traffic lane.”
We are not dealing with new technology: “In the late 1950s an experimental Decca chain was set up in the United States, in the New York area, to be used for navigating the Vertol 107 helicopters of New York Airways. These helicopters were operating from the principal local airports—John F. Kennedy Airport on Long Island, Newark Airport in New Jersey, LaGuardia Airport in the Borough of Queens, nearer to Manhattan, and a site on the top of the (then) PanAm Building on Park Avenue. Use of Decca was essential because its signals could be received down to sea level, were not subject to the line-of-sight limitations of VOR/DME and did not suffer the slant-range errors that create problems with VOR/DME close to the transmitters.”
Consider that the explanation for interruptions in service for ground-based technology are the same for GPS and Dish/Satellite Network disruptions such as “magnetic storms.”
What many people do not realize is that Google Maps, for instance, uses cell tower triangulation. As recent as 2009 Google released a video demonstrating that GPS was NOT required in determining ones location.
Many of you can use your Android phones and test this out for yourself. Make sure you have GPS turned off and then pull up Google Maps. Notice that it will still produce a fairly accurate result in respect to your location. Essentially, GPS requires WiFi, Cellular Towers, and Internet backbone to pinpoint your location.
Determining one’s location through the use of triangles is nothing new. This dates as far back as the 6th century: “In the 6th century BC the Greek philosopher Thales is recorded as using similar triangles to estimate the height of the pyramids by measuring the length of their shadows and that of his own at the same moment, and comparing the ratios to his height (intercept theorem); and to have estimated the distances to ships at sea as seen from a clifftop, by measuring the horizontal distance traversed by the line-of-sight for a known fall, and scaling up to the height of the whole cliff. Such techniques would have been familiar to the ancient Egyptians.”
The threat of a nuclear attack was the justification for this “new technology.” Consider that “while there were wide needs for accurate navigation in military and civilian sectors, almost none of those was seen as justification for the billions of dollars it would cost in research, development, deployment, and operation for a constellation of navigation satellites. During the Cold War arms race, the nuclear threat to the existence of the United States was the one need that did justify this cost in the view of the United States Congress. This deterrent effect is why GPS was funded. It is also the reason for the ultra secrecy at that time.”
Also, take note that a mid-air collision was orchestrated when one company wanted to take over another in respect to similar technology. "This situation was exacerbated by the workload problems of the Air Traffic Controllers Association (ATCA), under its executive director Francis McDermott, whose members were forced to use radar data on aircraft positions, relaying those positions by radio to the aircraft from their control locations. An example of the problem, cited by experts, was the collision of a Douglas DC8 and a Lockheed Constellation over Staten Island, New York, that—according to some experts—could have been avoided if the aircraft had been Decca equipped and could not only have determined their positions more precisely but would not have suffered from the rho-theta position errors inherent in VOR/DME."
An interesting side note to this "collision" is that, guess who is designing the roll out for the new GPS Block IIIA Satellites? Yep, you guess it. Lockhead Martin.
You may be wondering about the “satellite images” that are produced by Google Maps. These images are simply produced by planes that fly above the earth. If you don’t believe me then believe Mark Aubin, a Software Engineer who works on Google Earth. He is quoted as saying that “Most people are surprised to learn that we have more than one source for our imagery. We collect it via airplane and satellite, but also just about any way you can imagine getting a camera above the Earth's surface: hot air balloons, model airplanes - even kites. The traditional aerial survey involves mounting a special gyroscopic, stabilized camera in the belly of an airplane and flying it at an elevation of between 15,000 feet and 30,000 feet, depending on the resolution of imagery you're interested in. As the plane takes a predefined route over the desired area, it forms a series of parallel lines with about 40 percent overlap between lines and 60 percent overlap in the direction of flight. This overlap of images is what provides us with enough detail to remove distortions caused by the varying shape of the Earth's surface.”
Fundamentally, what we have with GPS is nothing more than a ground-based system that is using an improved technology for determining your location.
How do you explain my GPS working out in the middle of the ocean?
Pano asked others to do some research so I did. As far as I can tell this started in earnest at a time when making up religions was a popular pastime, Mme Blavatsky, Christian Science, etc. come to mind. Science was a competing religion in many folks minds, the flat earth was just another literal Biblical interpretation to circle the wagons around. Simple physics of scale we are small the earth is big experiments that rely on easy immediate perception are going to be difficult.
Last edited:
What stops them floating off into space? Do they wear sticky shoes?famousmockingbird said:
Didn't some clever Greek bloke estimate the radius of the earth by measuring the shadow of a vertical stick here and getting his friend over there (a few hundred miles away) to do the same at the same time? Was he in on the conspiracy too?
Gravity and Earth's rotational motion: The Eötvös Effect The link shows a very basic instrument to see the effect. If either Earth is flat and steady or there is no gravity this will not work. Also for a set of experiments look at the history of (re)discoveries by Copernicus, Galileo Galilei, the work of Kepler and others. They had to be very creative for their times to prove their point of view. If back then it was rather difficult to repeat their experiments for an average guy, these days it can be easily done. The entire modern physics and even its basic version taught at school provides enough evidence and experimental means to prove or disprove the Earth flatness.
The problem is that if someone does not want to disprove his/her own believes there is nothing we can do about it. Even more difficult to argue with the people who actually aware about how things work but pretend they don't for whatever reason. I think such people should be left alone, but I understand the ego of those "who know", which sometimes is so strong that they demand to open the eyes of the few non believers
The wikipedia tells that modern Flat Earth society in its best days had around 3500 followers worldwide. This amount of people is so small that the influence of their ideas is negligible. I personally was not aware that they exist until I read it in this thread
The problem is that if someone does not want to disprove his/her own believes there is nothing we can do about it. Even more difficult to argue with the people who actually aware about how things work but pretend they don't for whatever reason. I think such people should be left alone, but I understand the ego of those "who know", which sometimes is so strong that they demand to open the eyes of the few non believers
The wikipedia tells that modern Flat Earth society in its best days had around 3500 followers worldwide. This amount of people is so small that the influence of their ideas is negligible. I personally was not aware that they exist until I read it in this thread
When was the last time you were actually out in the middle of the ocean with your GPS?
My wife's sister is going to winter in Leesburg for health reasons and for the time being my wife and I will be spending the cold months there, I am bringing a BIG telescope.
January, sorry can't tell a lie it worked. Almost forgot, I was on an off grid island in Casco bay that had a small 6 hole golf course and I mapped the greens and tees with my GPS writing down the coordinates to the last fractional second. When I came home I Googled the satellite images and everything was perfect within less than a meter.
Last edited:
The gravity argument is an interesting one. We often say that Sir Isaac Newton discovered gravity. If he did, then what did people believe in before that? WHhy did things fall? We've been used to the idea of gravity for so long, it's hard to imagine something else.
That's good! You were actually so far from land that you had to be out of range of cell towers and other navigational aids that your phone could use? And you used the GPS to accurately navigate? This is direct experience. EDIT: Sorry, missed your edit.
About 16 years ago we picked up a couple of stranded fishermen on the Rio San Juan out of Nicaragua and they were carrying a GPS unit. They had tagged a number of features on the river on their trip up, including a tree full of monkeys, which they accurately pointed out. That was impressive at the time. I certainly did not see any infrastructure in the Costa Rica jungle that would allow for a land based GPS. Not the middle of the ocean, but the middle of the jungle.
This is a psychological problem, not a "scientific" one.
This entire endeavor isn't going to be accomplished via proof, only by creating doubt in said friend's viewpoint. It's resistant to convincing, as a new formulation (however contrived) can be raised to counter any allusion to science (see: the cop outs of conspiracy theories).
Which is to say you need to illuminate any number of self-inconsistent views your friend holds. You have to provide seeds of doubt. Also, having said friend explain the situation in its entire complexity (and NOT give you the by lines) will get you much further (at least according to recent psychological experiments).
This entire endeavor isn't going to be accomplished via proof, only by creating doubt in said friend's viewpoint. It's resistant to convincing, as a new formulation (however contrived) can be raised to counter any allusion to science (see: the cop outs of conspiracy theories).
Which is to say you need to illuminate any number of self-inconsistent views your friend holds. You have to provide seeds of doubt. Also, having said friend explain the situation in its entire complexity (and NOT give you the by lines) will get you much further (at least according to recent psychological experiments).
No, he has to explain it to you. That's a cop out to avoid having to deal with the inconsistencies and the fact that he doesn't really understand it himself.
I concider myself obliged to rely on what I' ve been taught. Criticism would be valid only in case I haven't been taught enough. That would turned me to fundamentalism. The more I learn, the more confident I feel. Asking to reinvent the wheel everytime I need to use it is like canceling some thousand years of human history and civilization. I don't need to send a ballon to the stratosphere to convince myself that Eatrh is global.
S. Freud would have a good answer to the flat earth believers... It's the ultimate fear of death that forces people to gather as many "like" as posible by any means i.e. subscribing to a fashionable conspiracy club. I guess this is also what forces us to subscribe to diyaudio...
S. Freud would have a good answer to the flat earth believers... It's the ultimate fear of death that forces people to gather as many "like" as posible by any means i.e. subscribing to a fashionable conspiracy club. I guess this is also what forces us to subscribe to diyaudio...
Involks absurdist conspiracy again. There must be something awfully special on the back side to go through all this effort. Ask him why do you care?
Last edited:
- Status
- Not open for further replies.