udailey said:I have no idea
I suppose you could try a mini model with a small Tang Band driver or another good but inexpensive driver and some PVC plumbing pipe. Then you could compare the differences and get an idea of what would happen. I am no speaker guru and a speaker guru might not even know the answer to that one, but I bet Planet10 would have an idea of what might happen. I would ask him. It sounds like a really interesting project though and there are probably quite different ways to tune that pipe to get a great sound. I just dont know though.
Uriah
Not a project just yet... I was going a different way 2 weeks ago with a CSS FR125SR 4" full range in OB and a CSS SDX7 6.5" bass drive as a TL sub. I stumble on the AN drivers searching for info on the FiirstWatt amps. I was looking for a poor man's solution to get into OB and SUB like a Promethius speaker from Bastanis. I had no option for a 12" full range though, so I thought I would maake a smaller room instead. With the arrival an the AN drivers, I have TOO many options again! If OB for a 12" yields near the results that I wanted with a TL sub/OB, then this will be an easy decision.
However, I would be interested in what a few "pros" in this realm would have to say about TL loading the 12" in a pipe with three 180 degree bends, lined with an inch of stuffing? I am interested in whether it would sufficiently dampen the mids and highs? Also, if I did not bend the pipe as much, mount the driver perpendicular on a vertical tube 1/3 of the way up the pipe it would cancel some out according to the TL site. I will not have 14' ceilings so I would have to addapt...
The following might work since I may not have 14' ceilings but I can dig holes before I pour the concrete floor. I could build a 12" diameter tube tower that sits 8' high out of the floor with the driver mounted on a perpendicular baffle 4' off the floor. This upper tube would not be bonded until toe angle is correct by rotating it at floor level. The remaining pipe (now 8" or 10"?) would extend down into a solid concrete block poured in the floor and would return out of the floor/wall a few feet behind or beside. The freestanding could be cut to 4" in height so that the driver sits and the end of the tube and the remaining 8' to 10' section could be below ground or in a wall. Except the 9' ceiling height, size does not matter. I can build in in a wall, build a wall in front so it looks like an in-wall, in the ground, in the ceiling... I can go crazy on this one because in Thailand, stuff like cement and PVC pipe is a lot more affordable than in Canada. I will be building the house personally so I can do whatever I want.(in this room, my lady chooses the rest of the house)
This basement/walkout room requirements are that one wall has a 12' to 16' wide 4' high bay window looking directly into my salt water reef pond that is open to the sky(pond 20'x10'x10). Living in the tropics is great! In Canada to build such an aquarium and the required infrastructure would cost me $100 000 with no livestock! In Thailand in will cost me $4000 at the most. The opposing wall will have room for a future HT 92" screen with the speakers on each side. I can make the room almost any shape with the limitations being the front wall(flat for the screen), 8' to 9' ceilings, and the outward bowed 12' to 16' window wall opposite the screen. Construction will be entirely of bricks and cement. Wood could be used for decoration or sound values for acoustic treatments. This is to be my isolation chamber and mad laboritory! Cement is uber cheap in Thailand as are bricks so I could build it cast is I like. Ideas are very welcome on room treatments, shapes, enclosures, materials for this AN drivers new home.
Makes me want to visit even more. Sounds like a bit of paradise.
Have you read this article?
Might like it while you wait for Nelson's new article.
http://passdiy.com/pdf/cs-amps-speakers.pdf
Uriah
Have you read this article?
Might like it while you wait for Nelson's new article.
http://passdiy.com/pdf/cs-amps-speakers.pdf
Uriah
I was the laughing stock when I suggested that all gain be done in current and then I/V done at the cans or the drivers! Are you pulling the other one Mr. Pass? LOL! Idea was to use the current out of the TP Buffalo DAC and then use a current amp for gain to a transconductance amp to drive the cans or full range. Since the volume control would be used in the DAC it should be easier to implement or make it possible at all, right? As it stands now Mr. Pass, I am awating your results on the AN Cast Super 12. I will likely build my Aikido and use it for preamp and cans. Whichever FirstWatt amp is used depends on your findings. The I/V stage will be your 1st NP D1 SE. I will likely be happy enough to never change again...
However, I cannot hide my curiousity about an entire current system from the volume controlled current DAC with no I/V until the cans or full ranger.
However, I cannot hide my curiousity about an entire current system from the volume controlled current DAC with no I/V until the cans or full ranger.
Mr. Pass, any ideas?
Mr. Pass,
Would you see an advantage to such a current rig? I am thinking that the current out from the DAC would need a gain stage of some sort before a FW F1 type of transconductance amp. I have no idea how to do any of this, I just get ideas and don't have the time to educate myself in 101 things at once. Any ideas?
Also, have you any impressions of these drivers yet in OB or TL yet? I am not being impatient, only eager.
Thanks,
The Dude
Nelson Pass said:
Mr. Pass,
Would you see an advantage to such a current rig? I am thinking that the current out from the DAC would need a gain stage of some sort before a FW F1 type of transconductance amp. I have no idea how to do any of this, I just get ideas and don't have the time to educate myself in 101 things at once. Any ideas?
Also, have you any impressions of these drivers yet in OB or TL yet? I am not being impatient, only eager.
Thanks,
The Dude
Just wanted to update that I made an LM3886 amp with my supply for the F5. I now have all parts for F5 so it should not be long before I finish that.
Anyway, the AN12s really sound fantastic with the ChipAmp. I did P2P wiring for it. Its my first real DIY amp since the previous tube amp was a kit and this one I did only from schematic. I was so nervous and anxious turning it on that my hands were shaking. Little bit excited LOL. So, turns out that I had every right to be anxious. It sounds just amazing and puts my Harmon Kardon to utter shame. There are things I like best about the tube, but overall I like the ChipAmp best. Serious bass with incredible control of that bass. There is definitely better imaging but I think it could be even better. I still have not moved them around at all and am about 9' from the speakers at listening position. I listened for about a week and then hooked the Fostex Fonkens back up. Wow am I glad I bought the Audio Nirvanas! Way more music and much more involving somehow. The Fostex on the other hand are easier to listen to. They still get confused with hard rock and anything with many different instruments but I dont have that issue with the Audio Nirvana's. I am no reviewer so I wont try to use a bunch of adjectives that only make sense to the guy using them, but I really like the ChipAmp/AN combo. This is a great rock combination. Beware, you better have well recorded music. Junk music sounds junky and gets turned off. BTW just a little aside: IPODS do not sound good with this setup. However, the Sony Walkman does an excellent job and sounds nearly as good as listening to my CD player. This is a nice bonus since I was losing faith in having a good variety of music to listen to since so much is poorly recorded. Dont know why music sounds nicer out of the Walkman, but it does and it suprises me for an MP3 player.
Anyway, there you go on the ANs with a chip. Its a nice combo that even my Dad, a 36 year bass player, finds wonderful. He really didnt want to listen but as soon as I turned it on he sat right down and wanted to know more. Started asking if I could build him a guitar amp with two AN12s. Hmm, probably not the best for a bass guitar amp, but maybe some Tone Tubby's will do the trick.
Uriah
Anyway, the AN12s really sound fantastic with the ChipAmp. I did P2P wiring for it. Its my first real DIY amp since the previous tube amp was a kit and this one I did only from schematic. I was so nervous and anxious turning it on that my hands were shaking. Little bit excited LOL. So, turns out that I had every right to be anxious. It sounds just amazing and puts my Harmon Kardon to utter shame. There are things I like best about the tube, but overall I like the ChipAmp best. Serious bass with incredible control of that bass. There is definitely better imaging but I think it could be even better. I still have not moved them around at all and am about 9' from the speakers at listening position. I listened for about a week and then hooked the Fostex Fonkens back up. Wow am I glad I bought the Audio Nirvanas! Way more music and much more involving somehow. The Fostex on the other hand are easier to listen to. They still get confused with hard rock and anything with many different instruments but I dont have that issue with the Audio Nirvana's. I am no reviewer so I wont try to use a bunch of adjectives that only make sense to the guy using them, but I really like the ChipAmp/AN combo. This is a great rock combination. Beware, you better have well recorded music. Junk music sounds junky and gets turned off. BTW just a little aside: IPODS do not sound good with this setup. However, the Sony Walkman does an excellent job and sounds nearly as good as listening to my CD player. This is a nice bonus since I was losing faith in having a good variety of music to listen to since so much is poorly recorded. Dont know why music sounds nicer out of the Walkman, but it does and it suprises me for an MP3 player.
Anyway, there you go on the ANs with a chip. Its a nice combo that even my Dad, a 36 year bass player, finds wonderful. He really didnt want to listen but as soon as I turned it on he sat right down and wanted to know more. Started asking if I could build him a guitar amp with two AN12s. Hmm, probably not the best for a bass guitar amp, but maybe some Tone Tubby's will do the trick.
Uriah
khundude said:
The approach that I would consider interesting would be to use a
current controlled current source, the simplest of which is to simply
cascode the outputs of parallel DACs with current source output
characteristics.
Whether this would be an improvement over conventional technique
would remain to be seen. People who would laugh at the idea
probably don't realize that they can think "outside the op amp".
Nelson Pass said:
The approach that I would consider interesting would be to use a
current controlled current source, the simplest of which is to simply
cascode the outputs of parallel DACs with current source output
characteristics.
Whether this would be an improvement over conventional technique
would remain to be seen. People who would laugh at the idea
probably don't realize that they can think "outside the op amp".
I guess how i am able to dream this is that I don't know how to think inside or outside the opamp! LOL! I am learning as fast as I can, but my priorities revolve around saving cash to get home to my woman. Your involvement in the DIY community gives me hope for mankind! I had sold everything to travel and learn except my music. I even carried around a OTL SET headamp, power conditioner, 500 CDs, and a spinner to 11 countries by backpack. Two very heavy bags and little room for clothes. This time around I sold the amp and the expesive NOS tube collection to make sacrifices. I would not be able to start my new life in Asia and have something worthwhile to listen to if it were not for the likes of good people such as yourself. I thank you for the audio advice and applaud you for your goodwill! Live long and prosper.
Open Baffle
Just to throw in a word here about my OB impressions.
I am using the Basszilla/Visaton style OB design with Lowther DX4 and Eminence Definimax LO15 drivers.
I have not been running the Woofers with the DIY FirstWatt F2, but intend to (only one channel is putting out the right gain), but running them on a chipamp. With a pair of 2a3 monoblocks driving the lowthers, the open baffle beats a Medallion front loaded horn for imaging (soundstage). Detail is close, but the lowther is good there. I drive the top end with Fostex T90A-EX.
I find the low end is a bit harder to tune perfectly. I have two Adire 10" subs driven with plate amps to supplement below 70hz right now. The crossover point between 180 and 220 seems good for the eminence drivers. I am using a DCX2496 stock as a x-over. I beleive I need some help measuring the frequency response for the room, and adjusting accordingly. More likely I will play with my ears until I go nuts.
MIKE
Nelson Pass said:
Just to throw in a word here about my OB impressions.
I am using the Basszilla/Visaton style OB design with Lowther DX4 and Eminence Definimax LO15 drivers.
I have not been running the Woofers with the DIY FirstWatt F2, but intend to (only one channel is putting out the right gain), but running them on a chipamp. With a pair of 2a3 monoblocks driving the lowthers, the open baffle beats a Medallion front loaded horn for imaging (soundstage). Detail is close, but the lowther is good there. I drive the top end with Fostex T90A-EX.
I find the low end is a bit harder to tune perfectly. I have two Adire 10" subs driven with plate amps to supplement below 70hz right now. The crossover point between 180 and 220 seems good for the eminence drivers. I am using a DCX2496 stock as a x-over. I beleive I need some help measuring the frequency response for the room, and adjusting accordingly. More likely I will play with my ears until I go nuts.
MIKE
The interface between woofers and full-range is the most difficult
part, and often does not meet expectations even when the result
is fairly flat. The crossover has to be tweaked carefully to align both
the phase and amplitude.
Most of the time, when you get that right, the response below that
region either seems adequate or is easily EQ'd.
part, and often does not meet expectations even when the result
is fairly flat. The crossover has to be tweaked carefully to align both
the phase and amplitude.
Most of the time, when you get that right, the response below that
region either seems adequate or is easily EQ'd.
Nelson Pass said:
I think the amplitude is off for sure, it sounds like there is low bass output, even though the gainclone has well , tons of gain. I may be wrong here. It's possible the bass just isn't getting in the way. When it was crossed at 250, there is a low end glare of some sort, not tubbyness (If that's a word?).
I didn't think of playing with phase. The DCX has lots of flexibility in gain, phase and crossover points to play with here. It's encouranging to know that my initial impressions are a known tweak spot.
I added the right channel for viewing pleasure.
Attachments
Is this graph for Audio Nirvana Super 12? If it is, then it looks a bit disappointing. I was thinking of AN12 Cast Frame in open buffles driven by F1 amplifier, but if performance is similar to AN Super 12 then i doubt i could get any decent bass. And the highs seem more limited than in Common Sense Audio graphs too.
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