Well, don't YOU say the same thing when this topic comes up? You just have different advice, which is fine. And I don't think anybody here said "don't bother" - they said things more like "Here's what I think will make your design perform better..."
Whether he goes with his original idea or someone else's isn't as important as having several points of view that will hopefully help lead him to an informed decision.
Whether he goes with his original idea or someone else's isn't as important as having several points of view that will hopefully help lead him to an informed decision.
sdclc126 said:
Most of the time I don't get involved. The times that I do, I try to work with the member by making positive suggestions. I have to believe that if the member wanted to build an established design, he would ask just that. Those I don't get involved with at all.
N10 doesn't have much understanding yet, and one of the better ways to learn is hands on. Starting with picking appropriate drivers, box design, etc. You are involved in every aspect. This is not for everyone though, as it can be a lot of work.
Different from the established design where you buy the parts, put it together without really learning anything. True, you will have something that someone else says sounds good. Probably measures good too.
MJL Rather than just doin' a quick napkin design for N10. Why don't you explain your process of designing instead. Step by step and showing him the tools, references, etc along the way. Even better by way of a real life example. Take an established design of yours or even another’s and provide an analysis of it. N10 obviously wants good loud bass that’s why he is leaning towards a 3way, so that should be respected ultimately.
To the others that say, "just build somebody's else’s design". Please be more constructive and point to an example and explain why you think this particular design would work for him.
To the others that say, "just build somebody's else’s design". Please be more constructive and point to an example and explain why you think this particular design would work for him.
MJL21193 said:
Hi,
Completely wrong for the clueless. You only learn something if you
do it right and most beginners will do it wrong, thinking it is right.
Using an established design is not simply putting it together. In
choosing the design one should be aware of the whole design
process and the choices made and the other options available.
3-way designs are extremely easy to get very wrong and very
difficult to get right, especially when the inexperienced are led
by those who do not know how to get it all right.
Anyone suggesting the use of stock crossovers should be shot ....
For a 3-way choosing a known design a very good idea,
the ZDT3.5,
one of the choices here :
http://www.htguide.com/forum/showthread.php4?t=28655
or here :
http://www.rjbaudio.com/projects.html
Getting to the point where you can make an informed choice
between the suggested options will mean you have learned
a lot, but you do not have to, none of them are bad choices.
/sreten.If one wants to actually design a good 3-way get your head
round this stuff as a starting point, if not - do not even try :
http://www.rjbaudio.com/Audiofiles/FRDtools.html
http://www.geocities.com/woove99/Spkrbldg/DesigningXO.htm
http://www.zaphaudio.com/
http://www.rjbaudio.com/projects.html
http://www.troelsgravesen.dk/Diy_Loudspeaker_Projects.htm
http://www.humblehomemadehifi.com/
http://htguide.com/forum/forumdisplay.php4?f=39
http://www.linkwitzlab.com/
http://www.geocities.com/kreskovs/John1.html
I think a 2 way with a separate woofer would be one way to proceed. This would allow for some flexibility and little easier to design. Use a passive crossover between the two with possibility going active for future growth.
Step 1) woofer enclosure design use ported
Step 2) mid woofer enclosure... ported, closed, open
Step 3) figure out were the mid runs out steam
Step 4) baffle step design
Step 5) crossover between woofer and 2 way
Step 1) woofer enclosure design use ported
Step 2) mid woofer enclosure... ported, closed, open
Step 3) figure out were the mid runs out steam
Step 4) baffle step design
Step 5) crossover between woofer and 2 way
sreten said:
You again
Go ahead and shoot me.
You act as though it's dangerous to do this. You act as though he could hurt himself! Lighten up.
Passive crossovers are difficult to do right, yes. Even with the established design, there is a wide margin of error for untested drivers. I've seen variation from identical drivers that hit 20% for some specs.
Yes, you increase your chances of getting it right but that's not what this is about.
Go back to the first post. N10 asks specific questions, one of those was NOT "which over-rated established design should I build?"
After prefacing my reply with:"You will get a bunch of "go with an established design" and "don't use a pre-made crossover" from others, so I won't go there.", I proceeded to try to lend some guidance.
If he feels at some point that this is too much to learn or too much work or becomes too afraid of picking the wrong inductor, then he can decide to go with the established design.
You see it's all about choice in a free society. Yes, even the choice to try and potentially fail.
infinia said:
A couple of my projects are here, free for anyone to look at. The only 3-ways that I've done are active, as all of my speakers have been lately.
The ones with passive filters will be active soon too, so you can see where I'm going.
If it's within N10's budget to go active, that is what I'd recommend.
In the meantime, I have built passive crossovers using Speaker Workshop, measuring the drivers, the driver impedance, the in-box combined impedance, the near-field frequency response, the far-field frequency response.
I've used the FRD Consortium tools to design using the published impedance and frequency response plots for the drivers involved, and compared that to the results from Speaker Workshop.
I've used the published frequency response plots and the impedance plots with the calculator linked above to design a filter network.
I didn't produce anything that was so offensive that I fell into despondency and wanted to end it all. In the end, I "tweaked" them by ear, which put them way off the measured response.
All you can do is try and there is no guarantee of absolute success - you still need to be able to listen to these things after all.
MJL21193 said:
tinitus said:
Hi,
Same goes for you, where are your finished projects?
He did pick a 12", a pretty decent one at that. If you had read the first post, you'd know that.
tinitus said:
If you like the thought of spending the next couple of years to make it work and another couple of years to find improvements, then please do...but be aware that there is a risk that you cant make it work, it very much depends on who you are and your dedication, and we know nothing about that
Nonsense. This is a prime example of the kind of thinking around here.
Hi
So far none of the critic's has pointed to a design that gives more bass with a lighter amp load than the dayton 305 in a 75-80 liter BR enclosure tuned to 30Hz. Sreten you want to help the design or not? Why don't you look into the Baffle Step design, otherwise get out of the way.
MJL going bigger than EBS for a few Hz extension is the wrong way to go. See Dayton appl guide they suggest 70 liter 30 Hz and my analysis shows something along that way as well.
http://www.partsexpress.com/pdf/295-120 series II vented.pdf
The Xover calculator can work for wide band drivers with using the drivers complex impedance. I will use SPICE to tweek it.
So far none of the critic's has pointed to a design that gives more bass with a lighter amp load than the dayton 305 in a 75-80 liter BR enclosure tuned to 30Hz. Sreten you want to help the design or not? Why don't you look into the Baffle Step design, otherwise get out of the way.
MJL going bigger than EBS for a few Hz extension is the wrong way to go. See Dayton appl guide they suggest 70 liter 30 Hz and my analysis shows something along that way as well.
http://www.partsexpress.com/pdf/295-120 series II vented.pdf
The Xover calculator can work for wide band drivers with using the drivers complex impedance. I will use SPICE to tweek it.
tinitus said:
Ah, I see you went back and edited your post to read differently.
Too bad you can't go and edit my post where I directly quoted you. I have a very definite opinion of someone who resorts to stunts like that.
You are the same two positive individuals in Glen Kleinschmidt's thread. Your dogged badgering there resulting in the mods closing that thread. Are you trying to do the same here?
infinia said:
Hi Infinia,
Without knowing how serious N10 was about the design, I did the minimum. What I normally do is determine the ideal box, with the lowest extension then make changes from there. I would decrease the box size, increase the tuning freq. and see what is the best compromise. 100 litres is not big for me, but is probably too large for others.
Like I said before, the crossover calc is effective if you know how to use it. It will put you in the ballpark and that's as much as can be hoped for when you can't do individual measurements on the drivers.
A few different value crossover components around the base values given with the calc will make tweaking possible.
I have built one 3 way passive speaker of my own design. I am not an experienced designer at all, and the easiest way I found of making it work was to use a fullrange driver as the mid. This way, the drivers have a large overlap region where their responses are pretty flat and generally no impedance peaks etc too near the crossover points that really mess up the textbook crossover calculators. I also feel they are very good value for money!
If I were to attempt this that's definitely the way I would go
If I were to attempt this that's definitely the way I would go
Hi,
I suggested N10 does some reading and chooses his own way to proceed.
I not badgering anybody and I do not need to be defensive or offensive.
Crossover calculators and stock crossovers are poor design.
As far I'm concerned that is a given, they do not help much.
Somebody round here does need to lighten up.
/sreten.
I suggested N10 does some reading and chooses his own way to proceed.
I not badgering anybody and I do not need to be defensive or offensive.
Crossover calculators and stock crossovers are poor design.
As far I'm concerned that is a given, they do not help much.
Somebody round here does need to lighten up.
/sreten.- Status
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