if you haven't found it, there is a new post of swan/108ez www.audioasylum.com/cgi/vt.mpl?f=hug&m=140240
Thanks to All,
I've not made any decisions on the enclosure yet. Once I get back, I plan on doing some bench break-in and then measure the T/S parameters with the S&L WT2. From there maybe I can get a better idea on them... plus all of information provided in this long thread (again, thanks to ALL).
I've been playing with the full-range setup for the past few years now... which includes Ed's horns, the Fostex FX120 and F120A (the F120A being my favorite Fostex driver to date), and some other Fostex units including the FF85K. I also splurged and bought a pair of Feastrex D5nf which are in Scott's BVR enclosure.
As for low-frequency response, I have to admit that I don't consider any of them to be capable of truly delivering the last 2 octaves. From all of the drivers I've used, the D5nf is still at the top and by a far margin. It also has the largest excursion of any full-range driver I've seen. Still, IMHO, you need to supplement the last 1-1/2 octaves.
I'm not setting any expectations on the FE138ES-R but will see what they bring over time. With such limited production numbers they will never be on anyone's top design list. After owning nothing but electrostatic loudspeakers for the past 20 years, the only dynamic drivers which I've found to deliver musically have been the ones with Alnico motors, namely the F120A and the D5nf. With all of the others, there is something "lost in translation".
Regards, KM
I've not made any decisions on the enclosure yet. Once I get back, I plan on doing some bench break-in and then measure the T/S parameters with the S&L WT2. From there maybe I can get a better idea on them... plus all of information provided in this long thread (again, thanks to ALL).
I've been playing with the full-range setup for the past few years now... which includes Ed's horns, the Fostex FX120 and F120A (the F120A being my favorite Fostex driver to date), and some other Fostex units including the FF85K. I also splurged and bought a pair of Feastrex D5nf which are in Scott's BVR enclosure.
As for low-frequency response, I have to admit that I don't consider any of them to be capable of truly delivering the last 2 octaves. From all of the drivers I've used, the D5nf is still at the top and by a far margin. It also has the largest excursion of any full-range driver I've seen. Still, IMHO, you need to supplement the last 1-1/2 octaves.
I'm not setting any expectations on the FE138ES-R but will see what they bring over time. With such limited production numbers they will never be on anyone's top design list. After owning nothing but electrostatic loudspeakers for the past 20 years, the only dynamic drivers which I've found to deliver musically have been the ones with Alnico motors, namely the F120A and the D5nf. With all of the others, there is something "lost in translation".
Regards, KM
lets hope she doesn't read this forum - could be madisound does, they're now $289 btw the exotic is slightly less now too.serenechaos said:..madisound's blowing FE138ES-Rs out...
http://www.madisound.com/catalog/product_info.php?manufacturers_id=131&products_id=8480
were $459; now $338...
just don't tell my wife tomorrow...
According to this it's ~10.24 cm: http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/showthread.php?postid=1428951#post1428951
GM
GM
Would it work with the Fostex suggested enclosure for FE168ez
Hello I am new to this and I am planning to build a new speaker for myself with my friend's help.
I am planning to get this driver FE138ES-R because of the review and I am looking for a plan for my friend to build the enclosure for me, he is a professional woodworker and he knows what he is doing, since he is doing me a favor I wouldn't want him to have to jump through hoops to help me out ...
So I was wondering if the suggested enclosure for the FE168ez sigma would work with this driver (if I make the adjustment to the front panel to fit). Since it already has a well illustrated plan and my wife already approved the look
Any help would be greatly appreciated, thanks.
-Cedric
Hello I am new to this and I am planning to build a new speaker for myself with my friend's help.
I am planning to get this driver FE138ES-R because of the review and I am looking for a plan for my friend to build the enclosure for me, he is a professional woodworker and he knows what he is doing, since he is doing me a favor I wouldn't want him to have to jump through hoops to help me out ...
So I was wondering if the suggested enclosure for the FE168ez sigma would work with this driver (if I make the adjustment to the front panel to fit). Since it already has a well illustrated plan and my wife already approved the look
Any help would be greatly appreciated, thanks.
-Cedric
Yes, mp9, I am also concerned about the materials used in this driver. If I spend 600usd I don't want foam to rot. If I like the drivers I want them to be just as good 10 years from now. And then there's AlNiCo which I've heard loses strength over time as well. I love to have someone correct me on these points, then I might buy a pair - they are as sexy as the F200A.
InclinedPlane said:
The F200A & F120A may both be quite sexy drivers (actually, I've heard both and they certainly offer a level of refinement and detail above their lower prices siblings), but they also have alnico magnets, and foam surrounds (albeit the latter are conventional as opposed to the pleated UDR Tangential surrounds that appear to be unique to certain Fostex series, and replacements should likely be easy to find)
Frankly, I think this topic has been fretted about needlessly. I'd be far more worried about drivers with thin metal cones such as Jordan, Mark Audio, or delicate ribbon tweeters etc., - speaking from experience, they are are far more fragile than paper cones, and much harder to repair.
Further, this class of driver is rarely used by any mainstream commercial manufacturer, but rather more generally by DIY / dilettantes (I say that with all affection)- I'd suspect the honeymoon would be over and many would move on to some new exciting model before the driver's materials deteriorated.
f200a and alnico mags
My friend owns the 1st pair of f200a I purchased in mid 90s not sure when but drivers are over 12 years old for sure. They sound better than new, look fine, no issues with foam rot. Time has moved on with plastics. Much better today then way back. Also have original altec- jbl drivers in legion with original alnico mags that did not have to be recharged. In my many years in this hobbie I have only had 1 pair of 40 year old alnico mag drivers needing recharge this do to damage from drop. I also have owned many ribbons that failed after months or just years of use. Nice that they can be rebuilt but they just might need it Even air from a fan can flatten out some. Domes that are easly crushed thus not lasting. Drivers requiring massive power cooking themselfs to death after just a few years. Not to mention the now cheap from well you know where transducers not coming close to spec. But I do see many used in loudspeakers costing $10000+. So why worry buy f200a Think a better deal than fe138esr.
My friend owns the 1st pair of f200a I purchased in mid 90s not sure when but drivers are over 12 years old for sure. They sound better than new, look fine, no issues with foam rot. Time has moved on with plastics. Much better today then way back. Also have original altec- jbl drivers in legion with original alnico mags that did not have to be recharged. In my many years in this hobbie I have only had 1 pair of 40 year old alnico mag drivers needing recharge this do to damage from drop. I also have owned many ribbons that failed after months or just years of use. Nice that they can be rebuilt but they just might need it
Even air from a fan can flatten out some. Domes that are easly crushed thus not lasting. Drivers requiring massive power cooking themselfs to death after just a few years. Not to mention the now cheap from well you know where transducers not coming close to spec. But I do see many used in loudspeakers costing $10000+. So why worry buy f200a Think a better deal than fe138esr.Being a DIYer it just seems strange to hear people this concerned about surrounds...
If you don't like the surround, change it, no?
If you really want to get exotic, make your own out of chamios, etc.
It's not that big of a deal...
And talking like anlnico is a bad thing???
Even if it does require mantaince, it's about sound quality...
I kinda think the 138s are a decent deal now the price has gone down so dramatically, I just don't like the BVR box.
And I've moved on, time to DIY drivers...
If you don't like the surround, change it, no?
If you really want to get exotic, make your own out of chamios, etc.
It's not that big of a deal...
And talking like anlnico is a bad thing???
Even if it does require mantaince, it's about sound quality...
I kinda think the 138s are a decent deal now the price has gone down so dramatically, I just don't like the BVR box.
And I've moved on, time to DIY drivers...
Robert,
Yes; its all been done before...
Surround for rough center, spider keeps the voice coil in the gap.
A lot of ways to go about either of them though.
Did you read up on Olsen yet?
Are you familiar w/ what Rullit's doing?
http://www.field-coil.com/
http://community.webshots.com/user/highfilter for lots of picts.
wooden spiders, balsa cones, leather surrounds.
constant current source field coil magnet.
are you going to rmaf this year?
Yes; its all been done before...
Surround for rough center, spider keeps the voice coil in the gap.
A lot of ways to go about either of them though.
Did you read up on Olsen yet?
Are you familiar w/ what Rullit's doing?
http://www.field-coil.com/
http://community.webshots.com/user/highfilter for lots of picts.
wooden spiders, balsa cones, leather surrounds.
constant current source field coil magnet.
are you going to rmaf this year?
I want to buy a pair of these drivers beford Mad. runs out of their $249 stock.
BUT-
I skimmed through this thread looking for impressions of sound and there are some, but the thread is just too long! So I need a favor. Can someone listen to a saxophone at high volume through these sexy 5" drivers and report back here? Tell me how badly they hurt your ears. This is the one thing that would make or break my desire to buy them.
BUT-
I skimmed through this thread looking for impressions of sound and there are some, but the thread is just too long! So I need a favor. Can someone listen to a saxophone at high volume through these sexy 5" drivers and report back here? Tell me how badly they hurt your ears. This is the one thing that would make or break my desire to buy them.
wow another $$ reduction, i wonder if i should??
lmk what you do with them. there was a interesting design proposed by a member in japan somewhere on the fullrange forum.
some discussions, p21 #209, p27 #270, p32 #320
a blh plan:
http://makizouphoto.hp.infoseek.co.jp/furukawa7.html
lmk what you do with them. there was a interesting design proposed by a member in japan somewhere on the fullrange forum.
some discussions, p21 #209, p27 #270, p32 #320
a blh plan:
http://makizouphoto.hp.infoseek.co.jp/furukawa7.html
I also have a pair of the FE138ES-R drivers... and the new price makes me hurt more so... it's a temptation to pick up another set.
Oddly, nobody seems overly thrilled about them despite the large amount of alnico, special cone, magnesium dustcap, UDR, etc. They are very well made with a good fit and finish. I measured them with a WT2 and the T/L specs are very close between the pair, but not real close to the published spec.
Madisound is also listing an alternative packaging option... 0.25 cubic foot ported enclosure. 2" tube 4" long stating an F3 of 80Hz. I might give these a go in a couple weeks, once I get the remaining real work done for the year. They have to be good for something
Regards, KM
so... it's a temptation to pick up another set.Oddly, nobody seems overly thrilled about them despite the large amount of alnico, special cone, magnesium dustcap, UDR, etc. They are very well made with a good fit and finish. I measured them with a WT2 and the T/L specs are very close between the pair, but not real close to the published spec.
Madisound is also listing an alternative packaging option... 0.25 cubic foot ported enclosure. 2" tube 4" long stating an F3 of 80Hz. I might give these a go in a couple weeks, once I get the remaining real work done for the year. They have to be good for something
Regards, KM
that .25 cubic ft box would work as a satellite. i wondering how close it's 80hz F3 would compare bass wise to a proac response 1sc, in actual use, and considering the proac is o.k. on it's own in very small rooms. Stereophile: ProAc Response One SC loudspeaker
I skimmed through this thread looking for impressions of sound and there are some, but the thread is just too long! So I need a favor. Can someone listen to a saxophone at high volume through these sexy 5" drivers and report back here? Tell me how badly they hurt your ears. This is the one thing that would make or break my desire to buy them.
A lot of opinions expressed on the 48 pages, and several designs discussed, but you don't want to read it...
So you're looking for a very brief summary?
Ok, my opinion...
I found this to be a tempermental driver to work with, and just "listen to a saxophone at high volume" may not give you enough information.
Some people liked the top-end, as is, out of the box.
I did not.
Even with a warm SET tube amp, in a well damped room, at a moderate level, sax hurt my ears. Horns -- sax, trumpet, etc were pretty bad in the two peaks.
Look at the freq resp graph. It's for real, I wish I had of believed it instead of the earlier posters in this thread...
Ok, roll it off, and roll in a LCY ribbon tweeter.
Use a notch filter to get rid of the peaks.
Used good components, LEAP (no, first order did not work very well).
Problem solved.
Very nice highs now, and NOW you can listen to sax loud, and it doesn't make your ears bleed, doesn't give me headaches anymore.
Kloss, and the German magizine had the same findings, same solution.
You didn't ask, but what I didn't like about this driver, may be that I just haven't found an enclosure that I like for it yet.
I tried it in a sealed box first, then in a BVR (which it's still in).
sealed didn't have much bottom, BVR is, well strange after living with if for a while. In the house it sounded "muffled," (as the Maiko BVRs or a friend of mine), regardless of stuffing, and with or without filter and/or tweeter. So bad that they sat unplugged, unused for nearly a year. These are also pretty sensitive to location in some rooms, e.g. boomy if near corners.
I just plugged them in again last weekend, to listen to jazz while working in the garage.
With a cheap SS amp, in a reflective room, the mids sound much better than they did in the house...
Good enough that I think I will build that pair of Nessies I bought the Spruce for, that's been drying out for the past year...
So I'm trying to say if I had it to do over again, I'd definitely start with one of the two recommended designs, the Swan, or the Nessie.
robert, cost aside since the 138's are ~50% off now, how do you feel about crossing it @1.5k - 1.8k to a seas exotic tweeter and keep the x-over simpler by eliminating the notch filter? of course the 138 will need a steep slope to get those peaks out of the way.
do you think i'd be wasting my time and should just get a exotic mid-bass instead if i go that route?
SEAS Exotic T35 X3-06, Tweeter with Alnico Magnet from Madisound
btw, not surprised to see that the 6db/octave on the 138 didn't work out. i remember tell you it wouldn't when you first came up with the plan. it's good to see i got something right here, must've learned something from the loudspeaker cookbook after all. lol.
do you think i'd be wasting my time and should just get a exotic mid-bass instead if i go that route?
SEAS Exotic T35 X3-06, Tweeter with Alnico Magnet from Madisound
btw, not surprised to see that the 6db/octave on the 138 didn't work out. i remember tell you it wouldn't when you first came up with the plan. it's good to see i got something right here, must've learned something from the loudspeaker cookbook after all. lol.
mp9,
i don't know about that seas exotic tweeter; i've never used one of those.
i can't see how using it would eliminate the need for the notch filter though?
and they're pretty high dollar...
do they sound that good?
i really feel that lcy LCY-130 Ribbon Tweeter 130 mm Round from Madisound is at least as good as the 138, and cost a lot less.
i dunno-- i'd just be guessing, but i really think the notch filter is an integral part of what makes it work, regardless of slope.
even with a steep slope, the peaks are still there, don't totally go away, still effect the sound...
I built this test piece so i could plug/unplug each part seperately, and even though i wanted to like this thing simple and "pure," it sounded best to me, and everyone else that listened to it, with everything plugged in...
as best I remember, the 138 rolled off w/ 18dB & the ribbon came in w/ 6dB?
and there was a pretty big gap between where they crossed, (NOT at the same freq).
yes, you were for sure right about the basic 6dB not` working well.
i just wish someone had of warned me about BVRs...
(maybe i just don't like BRs in general...)
i don't know about that seas exotic tweeter; i've never used one of those.
i can't see how using it would eliminate the need for the notch filter though?
and they're pretty high dollar...
do they sound that good?
i really feel that lcy LCY-130 Ribbon Tweeter 130 mm Round from Madisound is at least as good as the 138, and cost a lot less.
i dunno-- i'd just be guessing, but i really think the notch filter is an integral part of what makes it work, regardless of slope.
even with a steep slope, the peaks are still there, don't totally go away, still effect the sound...
I built this test piece so i could plug/unplug each part seperately, and even though i wanted to like this thing simple and "pure," it sounded best to me, and everyone else that listened to it, with everything plugged in...
as best I remember, the 138 rolled off w/ 18dB & the ribbon came in w/ 6dB?
and there was a pretty big gap between where they crossed, (NOT at the same freq).
yes, you were for sure right about the basic 6dB not` working well.
i just wish someone had of warned me about BVRs...
(maybe i just don't like BRs in general...)