Just noticed the thread. Cable choices seem to be very personal (and subjective)!
My personal favorite speaker cable is Silversonic T-14 which is silver-plated copper with Teflon insulation. I use their Air Matrix interconnect, as well.
Although I currently use a two-way speaker, I also have used full-ranges and tube amps where T-14 gave more detailed sound.
Good-stuff(although one might possibly do as well with surplus silver-plated/PTFE wires, if configured just right )!
-chas
Hey, saw this thread pop up again.
I just got a Monica USB, nice DAC.
I got a bunch of grey ribbon cable so I'm using that foe speaker cables now. 10 conductors. middle 2 disconnected. the 4 remaining on each side are paralled for + and - and it is good enough for me. no lumps in the carpet either.
I just got a Monica USB, nice DAC.
I got a bunch of grey ribbon cable so I'm using that foe speaker cables now. 10 conductors. middle 2 disconnected. the 4 remaining on each side are paralled for + and - and it is good enough for me. no lumps in the carpet either.
oh no, not another speaker wire question....
okay, so I'm surfin and here it is again.
Wire had a profound effect on the sound of a system. At some level they all have some resistance, some capacitance and some inductance. Therefore at some frequency these physical properties create a filter. Years ago I came to similar conclusions as Stereophile's "cable group", (Low, Brisson, Cardas, and Skoff). Their consensus was the following--regardless of geometries used:
Without discussing the merits of a particular cable type, all of the above suggestions seem reasonable to me. I've used fairly expensive cables over the years, and some DIY types and "non-traditional" types including Cat5, etc.
I've found Cat5 to be a good all-round type, as long as complete runs are used for the +ve and -ve sides each. That way capacitance is essentially a "dead issue". And it makes a pretty good interconnect as well. Microphone cable (4 conductor types like Canare Star Quad 4, or Mogami 4 conductor) are excellent as interconnects. Radio Shack "magnat" wire or similar can make pretty good tonearm cable.
I absolutely never use lamp cord type cables unless nothing else is in-house.
Presently I own cables as listed:
Audioquest Ruby, and Quartz
Audioquest type 4 and indigo speaker cable
Art Audio speaker cable and interconnects
Cat5 DIY interconnects
Canare DIY interconnects
Mission DMN solid core speaker cable
XLO reference 100 interconnects
Tiffany AC cable (purple)
XLO AC cable (green)
numerous Monster Cable products (lower end , types, Interlink 201, 401 (?)
And I was/am a cable convert from several years ago.
But I need to make one thing absolutely clear, if one cannot hear a difference, then to them there is no difference. Unfortunately few take the time (and it does take a lot of time) to test cabling. One of the most tedious things in the audio hobby
stew
okay, so I'm surfin and here it is again.
Wire had a profound effect on the sound of a system. At some level they all have some resistance, some capacitance and some inductance. Therefore at some frequency these physical properties create a filter. Years ago I came to similar conclusions as Stereophile's "cable group", (Low, Brisson, Cardas, and Skoff). Their consensus was the following--regardless of geometries used:
- good conductors
- good dielectrics
- good mechanical construction and connectors
- care in construction
- multiple small conductors to reduce skin effect and allow current carrying capability
Without discussing the merits of a particular cable type, all of the above suggestions seem reasonable to me. I've used fairly expensive cables over the years, and some DIY types and "non-traditional" types including Cat5, etc.
I've found Cat5 to be a good all-round type, as long as complete runs are used for the +ve and -ve sides each. That way capacitance is essentially a "dead issue". And it makes a pretty good interconnect as well. Microphone cable (4 conductor types like Canare Star Quad 4, or Mogami 4 conductor) are excellent as interconnects. Radio Shack "magnat" wire or similar can make pretty good tonearm cable.
I absolutely never use lamp cord type cables unless nothing else is in-house.
Presently I own cables as listed:
Audioquest Ruby, and Quartz
Audioquest type 4 and indigo speaker cable
Art Audio speaker cable and interconnects
Cat5 DIY interconnects
Canare DIY interconnects
Mission DMN solid core speaker cable
XLO reference 100 interconnects
Tiffany AC cable (purple)
XLO AC cable (green)
numerous Monster Cable products (lower end , types, Interlink 201, 401 (?)
And I was/am a cable convert from several years ago.
But I need to make one thing absolutely clear, if one cannot hear a difference, then to them there is no difference. Unfortunately few take the time (and it does take a lot of time) to test cabling. One of the most tedious things in the audio hobby
stew
I have recently used NeoTech OCC 7N copper, 12ga solid core teflon insulated..... costing so much less than boutique cables , i guess i am going to stop looking for other cables. cables i have owned that cost kilo bucks : Shunyata Lyra, Ortofon
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An externally hosted image should be here but it was not working when we last tested it.
Take a look at this review:
http://www.audioholics.com/reviews/cables/diy-speaker-cable-faceoff
and the conclusion:
http://www.audioholics.com/reviews/...eoff/diy-cable-faceoff-results-and-conclusion
interesting results
http://www.audioholics.com/reviews/cables/diy-speaker-cable-faceoff
and the conclusion:
http://www.audioholics.com/reviews/...eoff/diy-cable-faceoff-results-and-conclusion
interesting results
Many have measured RL and C of speaker cables. With the exception of wire gauge, the overall results showed very poor correlation with the (subjective) sound quality.
Some have advocated that group delay may explain some of the differences between cables, others have said it's small signal hysteresis and still others claim dielectric absorption. I don't pretend to know the answer, but the issue is more complex than the article by Thomas Goldsworthy. There are many cable parameters that he did not measure.
Certainly his efforts should be applauded, that's a lot of work. I note that he makes little mention of his system or his experience. Unfortunately both may be quite important, some experimenters have found a system synergy issue with speaker cables, especially their possible RLC network interaction with any global feedback in the power amplifier.
In my personal experience I found that over the years as I slowly upgraded my system and equipment, cables that were just fine before were revealed to have defects only audible on my newer and more expensive components. Like most people I want to believe that I've spent wisely so the common belief that it sounds better because I want it to might be true, however that's not guaranteed to be a reason.
For every cable change many listening hours were spent to try and identify why cable A seemed superior to cable B or visa versa. In some tests prior equipment was reconnected in the system with two outcomes. In case one the new found difference disappeared and in case two the difference once too small to be noticeable could now be found once the better equipment highlighted the difference.
In short, whatever is going on doesn't seem simple.
Some have advocated that group delay may explain some of the differences between cables, others have said it's small signal hysteresis and still others claim dielectric absorption. I don't pretend to know the answer, but the issue is more complex than the article by Thomas Goldsworthy. There are many cable parameters that he did not measure.
Certainly his efforts should be applauded, that's a lot of work. I note that he makes little mention of his system or his experience. Unfortunately both may be quite important, some experimenters have found a system synergy issue with speaker cables, especially their possible RLC network interaction with any global feedback in the power amplifier.
In my personal experience I found that over the years as I slowly upgraded my system and equipment, cables that were just fine before were revealed to have defects only audible on my newer and more expensive components. Like most people I want to believe that I've spent wisely so the common belief that it sounds better because I want it to might be true, however that's not guaranteed to be a reason.
For every cable change many listening hours were spent to try and identify why cable A seemed superior to cable B or visa versa. In some tests prior equipment was reconnected in the system with two outcomes. In case one the new found difference disappeared and in case two the difference once too small to be noticeable could now be found once the better equipment highlighted the difference.
In short, whatever is going on doesn't seem simple.
cables do have signatures....
at least that is my experience.
This need not become an ABX "argument" nor a "subjectionist" vs. "objectionist" debate. And I can agree to a point with salas , regarding designing the system around the wire "issue"
Years ago Frank Doris of TAS suggested that using cables to "tune" a system was a bad thing. I tend to agree. But after all is said and done, who cares? The end user is the one that needs to justify the expense or sound to themselves.... not to me or anybody else.
In my opinion, any cable that folllows the basic guidelines that I restated from Stereophile and the 4 cable designers interviewed (as a group or discussion) will provide a decent sounding cable.
Another of my favourites is solid core copper fire alarm cable. High purity copper in a teflon dielectric. Dirt cheap and very good. but just as Cat5 , etc, multiple runs can create a capacitance that many amps may not like.
at least that is my experience.
This need not become an ABX "argument" nor a "subjectionist" vs. "objectionist" debate. And I can agree to a point with salas , regarding designing the system around the wire "issue"
Years ago Frank Doris of TAS suggested that using cables to "tune" a system was a bad thing. I tend to agree. But after all is said and done, who cares? The end user is the one that needs to justify the expense or sound to themselves.... not to me or anybody else.
In my opinion, any cable that folllows the basic guidelines that I restated from Stereophile and the 4 cable designers interviewed (as a group or discussion) will provide a decent sounding cable.
Another of my favourites is solid core copper fire alarm cable. High purity copper in a teflon dielectric. Dirt cheap and very good. but just as Cat5 , etc, multiple runs can create a capacitance that many amps may not like.
I agree that using cables to "tune" a system is undesirable, I just wonder how this is possible.
When I listen to a cable I pick the one I like best, in other words I use the cable to "tune" my system to my preference. Picking a cable that doesn't sound best in order to achieve a non-tuned sound strikes me as a little crazy.
Some cables I've heard (interconnects) seem to add a glaze or harsh hiss like sound to the system. I guess I wouldn't know how to design a system ahead of time to prevent this effect. Since the cable is added last I'm unsure how one would go about designing a system component to eliminate any cable signature before the system is played.
When I listen to a cable I pick the one I like best, in other words I use the cable to "tune" my system to my preference. Picking a cable that doesn't sound best in order to achieve a non-tuned sound strikes me as a little crazy.
Some cables I've heard (interconnects) seem to add a glaze or harsh hiss like sound to the system. I guess I wouldn't know how to design a system ahead of time to prevent this effect. Since the cable is added last I'm unsure how one would go about designing a system component to eliminate any cable signature before the system is played.
I agree, you need to start with a good basic cable. I would suggest to avoid buying a cable because of publicity or a review.
Power cables, interconnects or speaker cable should never cost more then your amp Connectors will also impact the price significantly. I use Cardas connectors with good results.
I think we can learn a lot from building basic cables with good solid high purity copper wire. Once you have your basic cable, you will be able to compare.
http://www.bluejeanscable.com/ is probably a good start if you do not want to build them yourself. Nothing too fancy, with a reasonable price.
Power cables, interconnects or speaker cable should never cost more then your amp
Connectors will also impact the price significantly. I use Cardas connectors with good results.I think we can learn a lot from building basic cables with good solid high purity copper wire. Once you have your basic cable, you will be able to compare.
http://www.bluejeanscable.com/ is probably a good start if you do not want to build them yourself. Nothing too fancy, with a reasonable price.
Many posts and listening tests support the notion that for interconnects a cable with good metal purity and a very low dielectric constant is best.lowtherdream said:I agree, you need to start with a good basic cable. I would suggest to avoid buying a cable because of publicity or a review.
Power cables, interconnects or speaker cable should never cost more then your amp
I think we can learn a lot from building basic cables with good solid high purity copper wire. Once you have your basic cable, you will be able to compare.
http://www.bluejeanscable.com/ is probably a good start if you do not want to build them yourself. Nothing too fancy, with a reasonable price.
Air or vacuum has a dielectric constant of 1 the closest commercial materials seem to be unbleached cotton (while fluffy with a lot of air trapped inside) and foamed Teflon. Tests I've performed generally seem to support this notion. Interconnect cables with a significant spacing between conductors also sound good, but almost all these designs have limitations in EMI suppression.
For speaker cables the consensus seems to be good metallurgy and low as possible inductance. Of course gauge is very important in speaker cables and less so for interconnects.
Ultra pure silver or copper wire is not cheap, neither are quality connectors for the ends. I too find Cardas connectors good value for the money. The lowest inductance for speaker cables is achieved with many small conductors arranged so that their magnetic fields cancel.
Agreed.
I'm deeply cynical / jaded WRT to the subject of wire, but I beg to differ that the consensus is for as low as possible inductance. If it were rewritten as 'low as practical inductance', then I'd agree. I do not subscribe to the ulta-low-inductance school because 9 times out of ten, you'll push capacitance through the roof in order to achieve it. And that can cause more problems than the low inductance solves (assuming it's solved any in the first place).
If you want the wire to have as little affect on the components it connects as possible, then to my mind you want capacitance & inductance both as low / balanced as reasonably possible and wire gauge / resistance sufficiently low as to keep voltage drop to an acceptable level (and preferably solid core wire). Voltage drop / wire resistance is what I consider to be the critical factor. However, that's assuming you don't want the wire to be a filter or affect the behaviour of amplifier or driver. As efficiency goes up, so changes which would not be revealed in a lower efficiency system become more obvious. So in some cases / combinations of components, perhaps you might in fact want the wire to act as a filter. Maybe by using a resistive wire (anyone remember Fostex's lead-shielded solid tungsten wire loom of a few years back?), or maybe by the wire's topology to alter the its L&C specs, to achieve what for you is the desired amp - driver interface, and so on. Sure, you can probably achieve that with a few passive components, but if you can do it with the wire itself, so much the better. There's no one answer. Just use what works for you, and remember connections typically cause far more problems than wire does.
It's not really about DC resistance, it's about damping factor. A damping factor of 100 requires 0.08 Ohm cable not counting amplifier or terminals in an 8 Ohm speaker.
My experience is that changing from a damping factor of say 20 to say 100 is audible in a good system. This includes the impedance caused a cable with higher than expected inductance.
For example 0.08 Ohms is the inductive reactance of 63 microhenries at 200 Hz. The combined impedance of an inductor and a resistor equals the square root of the sum of the squares of DCR and XL
My experience is that changing from a damping factor of say 20 to say 100 is audible in a good system. This includes the impedance caused a cable with higher than expected inductance.
For example 0.08 Ohms is the inductive reactance of 63 microhenries at 200 Hz. The combined impedance of an inductor and a resistor equals the square root of the sum of the squares of DCR and XL
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