Thanks for the fast response John and thank you for documenting this build. I whipped up a quick baffle for today using "jermone69's" slightly shorter baffle and an LCR trap for the woofers' break up node.
So far I'm pretty impressed. This speaker sucks up power like nothing else! But it's worth it for that balanced bass response. I'll post up some pictures when I get a chance and maybe start a new thread when I start tinkering with it a bit more.
So far I'm pretty impressed. This speaker sucks up power like nothing else! But it's worth it for that balanced bass response. I'll post up some pictures when I get a chance and maybe start a new thread when I start tinkering with it a bit more.
From that alone, I know you've done it right.
The low efficiency is the trade off you must make for good bass in an open baffle speaker of that size. Not many people realize this - at least judging by many of the open baffle projects I've heard. One nice thing about that Peerless woofer is that it can take the power needed.
Thanks for all your contributions to this thread Pano. I've realised that this is a trade off I'm more than happy to live with. The only other speaker I have to compare these with is some B&W 602 S3s and so far I'm putting the mini OB a good way in front. There is a beautiful clarity to the bass. Sure it doesn't delve down into 20hz territory but it's not designed to and it's more than adequate for my listening.
My next venture is likely to involve an attempt at a floorstanding version, slightly wider baffle using four of the peerless woofers (wow I've been impressed by these) crossed over actively to a 4-5" extended range driver (possibly an Alpair from the MarkAudio range) with a ribbon as a supertweeter coming in at 7-8k or thereabouts.
My next venture is likely to involve an attempt at a floorstanding version, slightly wider baffle using four of the peerless woofers (wow I've been impressed by these) crossed over actively to a 4-5" extended range driver (possibly an Alpair from the MarkAudio range) with a ribbon as a supertweeter coming in at 7-8k or thereabouts.
Westy37
http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/multi-way/147812-big-passive-ob-project.html
KS-009
(DIY archive of Kimmo Saunisto)
CLS
I know a French specialist (sorry in French but take a look to the schema)
Asservissement d'un HP - De la puce à l'oreille
http://ddata.over-blog.com/xxxyyy/1/74/30/05/CFP/CineticFeedBack_Ch3_M1.pdf
I saw result of the level of distortion in the bass 10x better. But I am not convinced because a lot of amplifiers can't supply current in the bass. The current feedback is just a compensation of lack of current. I don't want to hijack the thread. I stop talking about this.
http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/multi-way/147812-big-passive-ob-project.html
KS-009
(DIY archive of Kimmo Saunisto)
CLS
I know a French specialist (sorry in French but take a look to the schema)
Asservissement d'un HP - De la puce à l'oreille
http://ddata.over-blog.com/xxxyyy/1/74/30/05/CFP/CineticFeedBack_Ch3_M1.pdf
I saw result of the level of distortion in the bass 10x better. But I am not convinced because a lot of amplifiers can't supply current in the bass. The current feedback is just a compensation of lack of current. I don't want to hijack the thread. I stop talking about this.
For my second speaker project, I humbly submit these which are heavily influenced by this thread. They use the same Peerless SLS 12" woofers. The high frequencies are handled by CSS FR125SR's. Crossovers are active using a MiniDSP. The baffles are 15" wide by 32" tall with 24" tall side supports (winglets) that vary from 6" wide at the bottom to 2" at the top. Right now, the drivers are breaking in -- they have about 18 hours on them.
The crossover is centered at just over 200 hz for the initial set-up and PEQ filters in the MiniDSP are great for compensating for rising baffle response. They are basically flat down to 40 hz (but, as Pano and others have mentioned, you really have to pump the gain on the woofer amp to feed them with this sort of compensation).
So far, I'll just say that the bass is really tight and well defined. The mids and highs are also very detailed. They're very enjoyable to listen to -- not tiring at all. I love open baffle sound.
Thanks very much to everyone who has contributed to this thread. These aren't exactly Manzanitas, so if folks have any interest in discussing these further, let me know if I should set up a new thread or if it's okay to talk about them here.
The crossover is centered at just over 200 hz for the initial set-up and PEQ filters in the MiniDSP are great for compensating for rising baffle response. They are basically flat down to 40 hz (but, as Pano and others have mentioned, you really have to pump the gain on the woofer amp to feed them with this sort of compensation).
So far, I'll just say that the bass is really tight and well defined. The mids and highs are also very detailed. They're very enjoyable to listen to -- not tiring at all. I love open baffle sound.
Thanks very much to everyone who has contributed to this thread. These aren't exactly Manzanitas, so if folks have any interest in discussing these further, let me know if I should set up a new thread or if it's okay to talk about them here.
Attachments
Hi, thank you for this great Manzanita project.
I've been lurking at this thread for some weeks, waiting for that excellent+simple+affordable variation.
This would be my first DIY speaker project, and I hope my last for a long time, as I have little time & less knowledge to DIY different variations.
Manzanita looks as made to measure for me, but, besides cost issues, I have a big doubt, regarding to placement.
My listening room is very irregular, opening to other spaces. The left speaker would be placed at most 12' (30 cm.) to the side wall -now treated with a 24'x24' absorbing panel-.
Is/How could be this project viable in this room?
I've been lurking at this thread for some weeks, waiting for that excellent+simple+affordable variation.
This would be my first DIY speaker project, and I hope my last for a long time, as I have little time & less knowledge to DIY different variations.
Manzanita looks as made to measure for me, but, besides cost issues, I have a big doubt, regarding to placement.
My listening room is very irregular, opening to other spaces. The left speaker would be placed at most 12' (30 cm.) to the side wall -now treated with a 24'x24' absorbing panel-.
Is/How could be this project viable in this room?
Hi! The side walls matter the least. As with all dipole speakers, the sound coming from the sides is the lowest. Behind the speaker is important, to the side is much less important.
12" off the side wall is not great, but a speaker like this isn't too sensitive to side walls. You'll need to experiment with it once you get it built.
12" off the side wall is not great, but a speaker like this isn't too sensitive to side walls. You'll need to experiment with it once you get it built.
That should make it easy to dial-in. It's certainly worth a try.
I use a MiniDSP with the crossover set at 200 Hz (24 db/octave both ways). In addition, the Peerless 12 inch have a PEQ filter that ramps off 11 db as the frequency goes from 50 to 200 Hz and the CSS have a broad PEQ filter that reduces up to 4 db to compenate for the dipole baffle peak between about 500 and 3000 Hz. My best friend and my wife both think they sound great (so do I).
I'm using AudioTools on an iPad (available for iPhone, too) to take RTA and FFT measurements in room.
Good luck if you decide to go for it.
I use a MiniDSP with the crossover set at 200 Hz (24 db/octave both ways). In addition, the Peerless 12 inch have a PEQ filter that ramps off 11 db as the frequency goes from 50 to 200 Hz and the CSS have a broad PEQ filter that reduces up to 4 db to compenate for the dipole baffle peak between about 500 and 3000 Hz. My best friend and my wife both think they sound great (so do I).
I'm using AudioTools on an iPad (available for iPhone, too) to take RTA and FFT measurements in room.
Good luck if you decide to go for it.
Attachments
And another pair (actually two pairs) goes live!
Together with a friend we built two pairs. Mine just went home this past weekend. This is the original Manzanita design. All passive with the crossover done p2p on the back of the baffle (see tail picture). It is currently on provisional stands in a provisional location getting broken in. Driven at this time by a six channel Rotel unit (two bridged). Boy, these babies drink up the power... (But you all knew that... ) The surface is painted with chalk board paint and will be beautified with a hand drawn chalk painting.
So far so good. I am not yet very happy with the accuracy of the imaging I must admit. But the tonal balance is good. The baffle vibrates quite a bit and I can now see why people consider "naked" speakers. Maybe that's next. But first I want to run some experiments with active crossover (Behringer) to see what's possible in that direction. Curious to see whether the sound would benefit from that.
Overall a very satisfying project.
Peter
Together with a friend we built two pairs. Mine just went home this past weekend. This is the original Manzanita design. All passive with the crossover done p2p on the back of the baffle (see tail picture). It is currently on provisional stands in a provisional location getting broken in. Driven at this time by a six channel Rotel unit (two bridged). Boy, these babies drink up the power...
(But you all knew that... ) The surface is painted with chalk board paint and will be beautified with a hand drawn chalk painting.So far so good. I am not yet very happy with the accuracy of the imaging I must admit. But the tonal balance is good. The baffle vibrates quite a bit and I can now see why people consider "naked" speakers. Maybe that's next. But first I want to run some experiments with active crossover (Behringer) to see what's possible in that direction. Curious to see whether the sound would benefit from that.
Overall a very satisfying project.
Peter
Attachments
Yeah! Way cool
- thanks for posting that. Glad you had fun.
Yes, these beasts are power hungry. That's the trade-off to get bass out of an OB that size. No free lunch.
After you've gotten used to them, try adding the triangular side wing as seen in the top of the thread. It should flesh them out a bit and may change the imaging. Let us know what you think.
Then after you've lived with them for a few months, you may want to try a small fullrange driver in place of the tweeter. But we'll get into that later. BTW, which tweeter did you use?
- thanks for posting that. Glad you had fun.
Yes, these beasts are power hungry. That's the trade-off to get bass out of an OB that size. No free lunch.
After you've gotten used to them, try adding the triangular side wing as seen in the top of the thread. It should flesh them out a bit and may change the imaging. Let us know what you think.
Then after you've lived with them for a few months, you may want to try a small fullrange driver in place of the tweeter. But we'll get into that later. BTW, which tweeter did you use?
I have a similar dilemma to some suggestions here; Alpair 6M or Scanspeak 10F, to replace my current Monacor 4", which crosses to the Neo3PDR at about 5K (both "naked"). I like the marketing/engineering behind the Alpair, but the 10F gets more favourable measurements according to some on the forums, and is used successfully in a similar configuration in JohnKs Nao Note.
I suspect the Alpair 6m is the better choice all the way up (per its full-range design), and with a tweeter coming in at 6K+, the SS10F is a better choice (hence marketed as a mid). Similar price in the UK as well.
P.S. I have an 8" and dual alpha15s below, all on a narrow flat baffle.
Scanspeak 10F
10F/8424G00 - Scan-Speak 4 inch wideband coated fiberglass - Europe Audio
Alpair 6M
Alpair 6M - Markaudio Alpair fullrange driver Gold - Europe Audio
I suspect the Alpair 6m is the better choice all the way up (per its full-range design), and with a tweeter coming in at 6K+, the SS10F is a better choice (hence marketed as a mid). Similar price in the UK as well.
P.S. I have an 8" and dual alpha15s below, all on a narrow flat baffle.
Scanspeak 10F
10F/8424G00 - Scan-Speak 4 inch wideband coated fiberglass - Europe Audio
Alpair 6M
Alpair 6M - Markaudio Alpair fullrange driver Gold - Europe Audio
Actually, they have the triangle as per the original instructions though the images don't show that. I used the cheaper original tweeter.
Peter
Just ordered drivers to build the original version, I figure if it doesn't work out at least I will have some very nice drivers for a future project!
My room placement is going to vary a bit from the recommendation. They will be about 3 feet from side walls and approx. 10 feet from the back wall. An odd arrangement but it is what I have to work with. Hopefully the balance won't be too skewed without that back wall.
I'm also very interested to see where this goes with a wider bandwidth driver on top, or possibly conversion to a 3 way. I've got some EL70's right now that could potentially work for the top end but I'm assuming these have already been considered. I'll post pics when they are up and running.
My room placement is going to vary a bit from the recommendation. They will be about 3 feet from side walls and approx. 10 feet from the back wall. An odd arrangement but it is what I have to work with. Hopefully the balance won't be too skewed without that back wall.
I'm also very interested to see where this goes with a wider bandwidth driver on top, or possibly conversion to a 3 way. I've got some EL70's right now that could potentially work for the top end but I'm assuming these have already been considered. I'll post pics when they are up and running.
