FaitalPRO 15HP1060 vs 3015LF for tapped horn?

[Jennygirl]

Well the above sim is junk, I was accidentally converting between std-metric using cubic instead of square conversion *facepalm*

Anyway here is a new sim, and some cad drawings to match.

I'm pretty new to midbass horns, I've only ever done subs. How important is the horn profile? I imagine at a certain frequency it starts to become very important.

 

[Jennygirl]

More updates

After reading through some threads on FLH midbasses, I took some cues from jbell's HS12

Looking for any comments about the ports- if they are too big / taking up too much space in the horn. Thank you in advance for anyone who might want to chime in!

 

[Patrick Bateman]

If the bike is for a Burning Man type thing, I would efinitely go with the Danley Caleb approach. A full-range Synergy Horn that can play down to 50hz or so.

Here's why:

Weight is going to be a huge factor, and going with a single box for the entire range is going to save you a lot of weight. Efficiency is going to be a huge factor, and Synergy Horns are efficient.

In a home, it would be difficult to justify an fifteen cubic foot Synergy Horn, but out in Burning Man, it should be fine.

The pic above is intended to illustrate how much weight a cargo bike can carry. In Mexico you routinely see dudes that weigh about 150lbs pushing 300lbs of cargo on a cargo bike.

If I did this, it would have a couple of neodymium twelves for the low frequencies, four midranges for the midrange, and a single compression driver for the highs. It would cover 40hz to 20,000hz and it would be about 103dB efficient. With five hundred watts of amplification you could hit 130dB. The heaviest part would probably be the batter to power it, and you'd probably want some way of charging the batteries. Perhaps a solar panel?

An externally hosted image should be here but it was not working when we last tested it.

These are the type of cargo bikes you see in Mexico. You can get them new for $800 from bikebug.net. You could probably find them used for a couple hundred bucks if you look. In Mexico there are literally thousands of these.

 

[xrk971]

Welcome back Jennygirl. You might also want to look at the bookshelf synergy horn thread - use of COTS horns with a fullrange and add bass injection taps.

http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/multi-way/285030-bookshelf-multi-way-point-source-horn.html

Regarding mid horns, the profile is critical - I have found that tractrix profile as predicted by the spreadsheet provided by volvotreter works really well. I have built a few and they sound great. They load the cone well and the displacement is really small so distortion is low. They are not constant directivity though.

http://wp.volvotreter.de/dl-section/tools/

The other profile that I have see that works really well as a bass horn that goes from 60Hz to 500Hz is the University Classic. If you take the same expansion and scale it for higher frequencies it can work really well. Very efficient and smooth response.

See examples here - there are some HR models and Akabak models posted:

https://community.klipsch.com/index...sicdean-horn-profile-need-driver-choice-help/

Check this response out:

https://community.klipsch.com/index...rn-profile-need-driver-choice-help/?p=1864775

Or this one in Akabak:

 

[Jennygirl]

Patrick- Weight is not too much of an issue. The trike I have is motorized, and LA is pretty much all flat ground. The sub is pretty efficient, and digs all the way down to 28hz. That has been a goal I've been wanting to reach on a bicycle setup for years

I guess using the sub as-is a huge excitement for me, I have spent so much time and research building it. The 28hz 130dB thing is huge, too!

As far as mid/hf options, a synergy I think would be too top heavy on the trailer being that it would be mounted so high up (there needs to be room for DJ equipment atop the sub).

The other thing I am dealing with except for top-heaviness is height of the deck for DJ equipment. If I am going to do a dual 10" for midbass, the 10s have to be placed horizontally rather than vertically.. I have about 12" height to work with in the midbass cabinet.

It's indeed good to be back, and thanks for the warm welcome. Also super appreciate the input

 

[Patrick Bateman]

Patrick- Weight is not too much of an issue. The trike I have is motorized, and LA is pretty much all flat ground. The sub is pretty efficient, and digs all the way down to 28hz. That has been a goal I've been wanting to reach on a bicycle setup for years

LA as in Los Angeles? There's a Facebook group called "I used to Rave in the 90s" that would have some people that would be a big help here. Back in the 90s there was a crew called "Tonka Sound" that did a lot of back loaded horns for shows.

https://www.facebook.com/groups/43835966237/

About a year ago I ran some sims comparing the 100,000 watt setups from PK Sound to the Tonka rig, and the Tonka systems were pretty close. Naturally, the PK boxes are much smaller.

I'm super busy, but I'm fairly local, so if you need any help with horns, LMK.

I guess using the sub as-is a huge excitement for me, I have spent so much time and research building it. The 28hz 130dB thing is huge, too!

As far as mid/hf options, a synergy I think would be too top heavy on the trailer being that it would be mounted so high up (there needs to be room for DJ equipment atop the sub).

I would be REALLY careful about picking the F3. Your efficiency is going to drop like a rock the lower you play. PK Sound started out running labsubs, and when they switched to systems that play about half an octave lower, they had to increase their amplifier output to about 100,000 watts. It takes an insane amount of power to do 30hz justice. And I've heard the PK rigs inside and outside, and when they're outside they sound pretty anemic, even with all that power. (Indoors they're mind bending.)

In a nutshell, I'd be looking at an F3 around 40-50hz to keep the efficiency high. Unless you're prepared to bring 10,000 watts or more.

The other thing I am dealing with except for top-heaviness is height of the deck for DJ equipment. If I am going to do a dual 10" for midbass, the 10s have to be placed horizontally rather than vertically.. I have about 12" height to work with in the midbass cabinet.

It's indeed good to be back, and thanks for the warm welcome. Also super appreciate the input

Hmmm trying to picture this. What are the overall dimensions?

 

[Jennygirl]

Patrick, not looking to do any crazy raves with this setup.. More for a party with 30-40 people

I've heard of Tonka, pretty legendary I think.

As far as the sub, it's already built and ready to go! Definitely gonna stick with it. I already have most of the components, including the HF144 CD's with 90/60 RCF horns, 10CL51s, minidsp, two JL amps (1200W for sub and 600W for mids/highs), and a full metal and wood shop begging for me to build this next box for the mids.

Basically just need to build the FLH enclosure, should only cost me 100 or so. Already have all the metal I need for the structure.

 

[Jennygirl]

Whoops, forgot to upload the images

 

[Patrick Bateman]

How about a Synergy Horn top with one HF144, dual 10CL51s?

That'll give you directivity control down much much lower.

 

[Jennygirl]

Then I would have a lot of weight up top, or I could put it right above the sub but then if anyone stands up next to the sub to dance (which they will) then highs get lost into the person's belly

Here are some photos of a previous bicycle build I did several years ago. It uses 4x10CL51, 4xgalaxy 5.5" drivers, a ~60L enclosure, powered by 36v li-ions, classdaudio.com amps. Pumps like crazy for about 20 hours with 10lbs of battery. Party machine.

This next project is trailer based, with not nearly as much consideration for weight efficiency. Really, I just want bass. If it's less portable, that's okay. I always have the older setup if I need something smaller and efficient

 

[Patrick Bateman]

Oh, it just clicked:

Bass bins at the bottom, midbass on top of it, and the tweeters up high.

You don't want the tweeters that far from the midbass; it's going to create some nightmarish comb filtering. I can understand why you're avoiding the Synergy route, it *would* make it top heavy.

If it were me, I'd ditch the tweeters up high and go with a two-way Synergy horn where the midbass horn is located now.
So it would still be a three-way, but the mids and the highs would be coherent and would have superior directivity, which is really nice with percussive music like EDM.

https://www.facebook.com/PureGrooveSystems/videos/vb.550678221694923/689673804462030/?type=3&theater

Here's a Synergy Horn playing EDM at Electric Daisy Carnival here in CA. The mic is distorting a bit, but when it's not, you can hear how clean the percussion is on these things. They're great for EDM.

 

[Jennygirl]

But then the highs would get lost in the first few people of the dance party in front?

The biggest use of it is when stopped, and the DJ is on the decks.

I could see the synergy horn working, only if it were telescopic and could be raised up when stopped, in the down position when traveling. That's actually what i did with the previous bicycle build shown in my previous post

 

[Patrick Bateman]

Then I would have a lot of weight up top, or I could put it right above the sub but then if anyone stands up next to the sub to dance (which they will) then highs get lost into the person's belly

I hope I'm not sounding argumentative here, I know I'm a bit of a Danley fanboy.

With conventional speakers, you *do* have that issue where something can block the high frequencies.

With a constant directivity horn, like the SH-50, the entire mouth of the horn is playing the high frequencies. So it's like having a full range driver that measures 30" x 30". You could literally stick your head in the mouth of the horn and it's not going to sound much different.

I had a pair of SH-50s playing in my living room one day, and our ten year old daughter was sitting a foot away from them. I had four speakers set up in the living room, and while I was playing music, our daughter pointed at the SH-50 and asked "is it on?" IE, she was a foot away from the thing and she couldn't tell that the sound was coming out of the speaker. That's the weird thing about CD horns; the sound doesn't come from one point in space, it's everywhere. (Hence "constant directivity.")

If I've piqued your curiosity, those Synergy Horns from the video are owned by Pure Groove Systems in Los Angeles. I think they've done some local installs, so it should be fairly easy to give them a listen if you're in L.A. I rented my SH-50s from Special Event Audio in San Marcos CA.

 

[Jennygirl]

Interesting. No you don't sound argumentative at all. You just really love synergy horns Which is perfectly fine!

You are convincing me to give more thought to it, which is probably a good thing. I think a synergy mounted on a telescopic rack could be way awesome. I might just do that.

Seems like there are already some good designs, and I could forego reinventing the wheel as well.

Like the SynTripp that jbell made, I'm pretty sure the mouth was almost the exact width. Gonna head back to that thread and start thinking about telescopic mounting options.....

Thanks Patrick I would have had no idea about the comb filtering. Definitely do not want if it's gonna be as bad as you're making it sound.

 

[Patrick Bateman]

True, I think Bill Waslo has published all the data needed to build his Synergy Horn.

If you scaled it up about 50%, you could bolt your tens to the horn, and you'd be good to go.

It would end up performing a lot like this, the Danley SH69. Although it's pictured "vertical" you can also run it "horizontal."

You'd want to reduce the height by about 40% to make it fit better on your trike.

 

[Jennygirl]

Oh, maybe I didn't specify. This is going on a trailer to be pulled by the trike. So mounting options are pretty flexible as long as there is room for the DJ part!

More and more leaning towards Synergy. I had been wanting to build one when I had just completed the sub, but for some reason started down the FLH path.

Thanks for helping to steer me back to the hip part of town

 

[Jennygirl]

Oof, none of the links on that hificircuit site seem to work. Having a bear of a time trying to find the plans for the coSyne. Definitely looks simple.

So I could use the B&C's instead of the 2" drivers?

 

[Patrick Bateman]

Oh, maybe I didn't specify. This is going on a trailer to be pulled by the trike. So mounting options are pretty flexible as long as there is room for the DJ part!

More and more leaning towards Synergy. I had been wanting to build one when I had just completed the sub, but for some reason started down the FLH path.

Thanks for helping to steer me back to the hip part of town

It's still a front loaded horn - so you'll have plenty of efficiency.

It really doesn't take a big horn to raise the efficiency of a midrange; a 34" long horn will have a cutoff of around 100hz.

Here's how this works:

When you use a horn that's narrow at the throat, you extend the upper limit of the driver. For instance, you can get your tens to play to about 2000hz on a narrow horn like the one pictured above.

An externally hosted image should be here but it was not working when we last tested it.

With a conical horn - like the Danley horns - you lose that efficiency up high. So the same driver on this horn will probably play to about 500hz, you lose a couple of octaves of output up high.

That's why the Danley horns have that big array of mids at the throat; without those mids, there would be a big 'hole' in the response between the woofer and the tweeter.



TLDR : The Synergy Horn and a Tractrix FLH will have similar output capabilities. But the Synergy Horn will require a set of midranges to 'fill in' between the 10" midbass and the tweeter. On the upside, the Synergy Horn will have directivity that's significantly better than a tractrix FLH

 

[Patrick Bateman]

Oof, none of the links on that hificircuit site seem to work. Having a bear of a time trying to find the plans for the coSyne. Definitely looks simple.

So I could use the B&C's instead of the 2" drivers?

Yeah, that's strange, what happened to the forum?

Anyways, here's Bill's Synergy Horn, with pics and dimensions in the thread :

DIY Synergy/Unity spreadsheet

There's a big list of Synergy Horn projects linked here:

Index of DIY Synergy and Unity Horns

Bill Waslo used Gento 2" drivers. They are no longer for sale. I have eight I'll sell you for twenty bucks, but you could probably get (slightly) better results with this:

Peerless TC6WD02-04 Silver Series 2" Midrange

I have both the Gento and the Peerless and the Peerless is a little nicer. The Peerless is similar enough that you should be able to just "drop it in" to Bill's design.

 

[BYRTT]

Oof, none of the links on that hificircuit site seem to work. Having a bear of a time trying to find the plans for the coSyne. Definitely looks simple.

So I could use the B&C's instead of the 2" drivers?

If going Synergy why not look at documented weltersys build, you have exactly same 10 incher mids http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/mult...-2-part-virtual-single-point-source-horn.html, but will need check out if your Faital Pro compression driver can do as his Celestion did.