That's what I'm testing. A: if it helps. B: what the weight, thickness and SOUND does. It looks like it is more brittle than the coating, so it will probably affect the pulse and thus the sound. Maybe even the correct working of the delay rings.
I would like to see in a video how you manage that without ripping the Mylar. I would say that it is impossible. Especially when tensioned on a frame where the Mylar bends quit steep when you come close to the edged. I wouldn't dare to try it.
Regarding cleaning the coating with a razor blade, you really have to try out yourself... its not that hard, and obviusly you have to move the blade in the right direction. As long as you move it in a slow but steady pace and a light pressure there is no problem. I have never damaged a membrane as i can recall. And i have done many pair of speakers ( * 8 that is). When new coating is applied, ideally aftertreatment is not preferable. But sometimes you get small bubbles that dries and creates small sharp peaks on the surface. Thats NOT good.. and ruins the panel very fast. Best method i have found is to smooth the surface is with razor blade.... maybe i shall make a video... I have had some healt issues last year soo everything has been delayed, sorry for that.
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Sprayed on the Mylar, anti corona dope adds 3 micron, Plastik70 adds 8 micron and makes the Mylar much less flexible. So further testing will only be with anti corona dope.
Here's a video showing it's easy to use a razor blade on a 63 panel!
Razor on the Membrane! - Google Photos
Razor on the Membrane! - Google Photos
What he said.....J. Gordon Holt.."Damn! I had such high hopes for the '63s"
"Our full report on the Quad ESL-63 electrostatic loudspeaker last month was inconclusive because (1) our first two samples of it broke down and started arcing, protection circuit or not, and (2) 1 had the feeling that there must be amplifiers which would them sound better than I had them sound to date.
Since then, we obtained two more of the speakers; here's what we found:
On most program material, the '63s would play cleanly at levels up to 98dB SPL, measured at 1 meter on-axis. Above that, one speaker's protection started closing down; the other's did not. This was the same condition we had experienced with the first pair, followed by the diaphragm breakdown of the "ailing" speaker, and shortly thereafter by breakdown of the non-ailing one.
On material with deep, heavy bass, which included many Compact Discs, that same speaker's protection circuitry shut down at levels measured at around 86dB, which isn't exactly soft but it won't blow you out of the room either. With Telarc's CD of the Firebird, shutdown in that speaker occurred on deep bass at the same measured level, but because that recording has much more dynamic range and bass on it than anything else we have on CD, the 86dB figure put the rest of the program at a level lower than most people are going to want to listen at.
Our conclusion: Regardless of the sonic merits it may possess, this system simply does not have the power-handling capability needed to cope with some of the program material available now on both CD and the better analog discs, let alone what tomorrow may bring. And our experience indicated that the protection circuits cannot always be relied on to protect the speakers from permanent damage due to momentary overload. Crossing over to an external subwoofer would improve the '63s' ability to handle high signal levels, but not by much more than 4 to 6dB. Without a subwoofer, we can recommend this system only to those people who listen to symphonic music at significantly lower than live-music levels, or to people whose tastes run to chamber or small-group music. With a subwoofer, the speakers do significantly better, but still will not reproduce an orchestra at close to a live-music level. "
I have differd over the minny years an reviews of Stereophile An Mr Holt....But they got it right on the Quad ESL speakers...an that's in 1983....
An it looks like No one can make them,what there not...A long playing reliable speaker ...No matter what coating or razor-blading.you may try..
There pr of the 63s on CL....
VINTAGE QUAD SW63 ELECTROSTATIC LOUDSPEAKERS
WITH GRADIENT ESL-63 SUBWOOFERS AND CROSSOVER UNIT
HIGH END SPEAKERS FOR THE DISCRIMINATING TASTE
MADE IN HUNTINGDON ENGLAND
5 FOOT TALL X 3 FOOT WIDE (+/-)
RARE YOU WON'T SEE THESE FOR SALE THAT OFTEN
ESTATE FIND UNTESTED
VERY GOOD CONDITION
.not tested....$3k.....I say...$500 would take them ...
So $500 for speakers, that well need to be reworked..what $1k-1500...bass driver rotten foam...$300 more....or
I see a pr of martinLogan CLS IIz on CL..$500....Need new panels...
I ask what up with the panels....one panels arking sent me a pic... look like coke splashed on one panels at the bottem…….So I get the CLS home....it night, I hook them up..I see right a way ….a flash-ark....its the panels feeder wire...fix in less than a min....playing an sounding like new now...30 year old panels.. been in the box for ten years.....
All I can say is ...how about that ML Coating....good luck
"Our full report on the Quad ESL-63 electrostatic loudspeaker last month was inconclusive because (1) our first two samples of it broke down and started arcing, protection circuit or not, and (2) 1 had the feeling that there must be amplifiers which would them sound better than I had them sound to date.
Since then, we obtained two more of the speakers; here's what we found:
On most program material, the '63s would play cleanly at levels up to 98dB SPL, measured at 1 meter on-axis. Above that, one speaker's protection started closing down; the other's did not. This was the same condition we had experienced with the first pair, followed by the diaphragm breakdown of the "ailing" speaker, and shortly thereafter by breakdown of the non-ailing one.
On material with deep, heavy bass, which included many Compact Discs, that same speaker's protection circuitry shut down at levels measured at around 86dB, which isn't exactly soft but it won't blow you out of the room either. With Telarc's CD of the Firebird, shutdown in that speaker occurred on deep bass at the same measured level, but because that recording has much more dynamic range and bass on it than anything else we have on CD, the 86dB figure put the rest of the program at a level lower than most people are going to want to listen at.
Our conclusion: Regardless of the sonic merits it may possess, this system simply does not have the power-handling capability needed to cope with some of the program material available now on both CD and the better analog discs, let alone what tomorrow may bring. And our experience indicated that the protection circuits cannot always be relied on to protect the speakers from permanent damage due to momentary overload. Crossing over to an external subwoofer would improve the '63s' ability to handle high signal levels, but not by much more than 4 to 6dB. Without a subwoofer, we can recommend this system only to those people who listen to symphonic music at significantly lower than live-music levels, or to people whose tastes run to chamber or small-group music. With a subwoofer, the speakers do significantly better, but still will not reproduce an orchestra at close to a live-music level. "
I have differd over the minny years an reviews of Stereophile An Mr Holt....But they got it right on the Quad ESL speakers...an that's in 1983....
An it looks like No one can make them,what there not...A long playing reliable speaker ...No matter what coating or razor-blading.you may try..
There pr of the 63s on CL....
VINTAGE QUAD SW63 ELECTROSTATIC LOUDSPEAKERS
WITH GRADIENT ESL-63 SUBWOOFERS AND CROSSOVER UNIT
HIGH END SPEAKERS FOR THE DISCRIMINATING TASTE
MADE IN HUNTINGDON ENGLAND
5 FOOT TALL X 3 FOOT WIDE (+/-)
RARE YOU WON'T SEE THESE FOR SALE THAT OFTEN
ESTATE FIND UNTESTED
VERY GOOD CONDITION
.not tested....$3k.....I say...$500 would take them ...
So $500 for speakers, that well need to be reworked..what $1k-1500...bass driver rotten foam...$300 more....or
I see a pr of martinLogan CLS IIz on CL..$500....Need new panels...
I ask what up with the panels....one panels arking sent me a pic... look like coke splashed on one panels at the bottem…….So I get the CLS home....it night, I hook them up..I see right a way ….a flash-ark....its the panels feeder wire...fix in less than a min....playing an sounding like new now...30 year old panels.. been in the box for ten years.....
All I can say is ...how about that ML Coating....good luck
TYU.. with active crossover at 100Hz 24db/oct you can play at least 10dB higer.
(i cut at 150Hz or 200Hz)
I agree that the old overvoltagae protection was bad, i have disconnected it totally.
There is a filter at the input 1,5ohm//220uF, i have disconnected that too.
There is other resistors in series with primary winding, they are also gone.
Metal grid is removed, and dust covers is removed, frame is stiffened, and som more tweaks.
My Beveridge 2SW2 is famous for dynamics. Not even close to my Quads..
Well maybe they are not for everyone, but hey! Esl 63 is the best speaker ever made, and if you cut away the LF at 15Hz they explode in dynamics.
(i cut at 150Hz or 200Hz)
I agree that the old overvoltagae protection was bad, i have disconnected it totally.
There is a filter at the input 1,5ohm//220uF, i have disconnected that too.
There is other resistors in series with primary winding, they are also gone.
Metal grid is removed, and dust covers is removed, frame is stiffened, and som more tweaks.
My Beveridge 2SW2 is famous for dynamics. Not even close to my Quads..
Well maybe they are not for everyone, but hey! Esl 63 is the best speaker ever made, and if you cut away the LF at 15Hz they explode in dynamics.
There are several clamp circuit itterations for the ESL-63's over the years. All the newer models (988, 2805, 2812's) use the latest quad clamp circuit and have not changed electrically in decades.
The clamp circuits consist of two parts. There is an antenna based circuit that senses arcing and triggers a triac which shorts the inputs (because screw your amp). Then there is a clipping circuit that limits the amplitude of the signal. In the early couple of incarnations of the clamp circuit this was done on the amplifier side of the steop-up transformers, and on the latest incarnation it was done on the high voltage side using a triple stacked diode bridge(s) and a lot of zener diodes.
The arc clamp doesn't care about the panels because it can't trigger until damage is done. It is there to keep the speaker from catching on fire.
The only circuit that can protect the panels is the clamp portion. And each incarnation work reasonably well but nothing is foolproof.
The 1.5ohm resistor in parallel with the cap provided protection for your amp and also some frequency tailoring.
Sheldon
quadesl.com
The clamp circuits consist of two parts. There is an antenna based circuit that senses arcing and triggers a triac which shorts the inputs (because screw your amp). Then there is a clipping circuit that limits the amplitude of the signal. In the early couple of incarnations of the clamp circuit this was done on the amplifier side of the steop-up transformers, and on the latest incarnation it was done on the high voltage side using a triple stacked diode bridge(s) and a lot of zener diodes.
The arc clamp doesn't care about the panels because it can't trigger until damage is done. It is there to keep the speaker from catching on fire.
The only circuit that can protect the panels is the clamp portion. And each incarnation work reasonably well but nothing is foolproof.
The 1.5ohm resistor in parallel with the cap provided protection for your amp and also some frequency tailoring.
Sheldon
quadesl.com
Speakers have to work....That were Quads all falls down …..So I say to anyone, have fun working on your quad ESls...Most never well!
I well be listening to magical Sweet musical tones, with my CLs.....
The Esl 63 is for music connoisseurs. Sit down in a dark room after a hard days work and put on some relaxing music at low level and just listen.
Maybe with a good beer on the table.
Enjoy the fact that this intricate piece of technology is way beyond ordinary paper cone speakers in terms of whatever.
Listen to a membrane that's six times thinner than your eardrum.
I admit that the Esl 63 cannot play loud att low frequencies, but the honorable designer of this speaker, Peter Walker, knew this from the beginning. He said: "A dipole speaker will never sound as loud as a boxed one, due to the front to back cancellation effect".
If You absolutely must play loud music with unhearable low tones, You can enhance the speakers construction easily with steel frames and bolted panels. When you're at it, You can also increase the number of bass panels.
I enclose a picture of Mr. Walker and an Esl63 in its correct environment!
Attachments
Which reminds me that in the 80's my pair of ESL63 developed a fault (faulty-panel). Of course it wasn't easy to get any help here in Denmark to figure out what was wrong. So I ended up calling Quad UK. A nice lady answered the phone and as I was explaining my issue she said, "Hold on, here is Mr. Walker". So next thing, I was talking to Peter Walker himself. A very nice man which patiently helped and explained what I had to check.
I still have the ESL63, plus an extra pair I bought cheap so I couldn't resist. I plan to extend them with a bas-system and cut of the ESL63 at 110Hz or so.
Sorry for going of-topic. I follow this thread as I'm very interested in being able to repair the panels and keep the speakers going.
Mogens
After I brushed on Martins coating I did see what looked like airborn lint even though I throughly cleaned the surface prior with 99% electronics grade alcohol.
I can see how this could work in removing anything above the dried surface.
I would image 600 grit might work also.
In the dark I watched for 10 minutes and only saw a very very faint dim slow flash in 2 spots to no avail or issue.
Regards
David
I was bicycling for two weeks in Denmark last month. You just have to time your breakdowns better.
Sheldon
quadesl.com
Argh, Sheldon. Had I only known. We would probably not got to the Quads
. Truth to be told, I do actually not know if they have any faults as I have not had them powered on for a number of years. I'm currently re-building the room that is to become the music room. No TV allowed in that room!!!! That room has had the lowest priority of all the rooms in the rebuilding we have done on the house. I know... Denmark is a small country, but how far did you get around? I live in the nothern part, not that far from Skagen if that give you any idea of where I'm located?
Next time (if there will be a next time), give us the heads up
Cheers,
Mogens
Thumbs up! I wouldn't expect that to work. Still not feeling confident to try it myself though.
Argh, Sheldon. Had I only known. We would probably not got to the Quads
Denmark is a small country, but how far did you get around? I live in the nothern part, not that far from Skagen if that give you any idea of where I'm located?
Next time (if there will be a next time), give us the heads up
Cheers,
Mogens
Not to derail this already de-railed thread, but I was in Sjaelland nearly the whole time. I spent a few days in Copenhagen and then did a square: up to Helsingborg, over to Sweden for a day, west and then down to Roskilde, and then back to Copenhagen for a couple more days. I bicycled about 500km in about 8 days. What a great country, well I shouldn't leave out the other Scandinavian countries either, they are all great. I'd move over in a heartbeat (Anybody want to adopt a 50 year old dude as a new son).
I got back in Copenhagen just in time for the pride parade. I've never seen anything like it. 196 floats; there must have been 20,000 people in the parade and several times more people watching and cheering. My wife and I had a hotel on the parade route (guldsmeden) and we watched it from our 2nd floor window, we got food before it stated and made it a picnic.
What a great culture and tidy society, color me impressed.
Sheldon
I did a day trip on my bicycle into Sweden via the ferry to Helsingborg. I didn't get to see as much of the country as I would have liked. Thanks for the kind offer. I'll be a bit more social next time I'm in town, we had a bicycling agenda that kept me busy.
Sheldon