Great work on your ML Panels an thanks for the pix... an all an any info on ESLs...
When i do get the Licron Chrystal ....i well not be spraying it on...spraying has to add unwoanted wate to the mylar...i am abel to get better high frc...from just puting on by hand vary lite coates...
.An after all my work with ESLs is to get Max output of the panels...i drive all my panels with tube amps with only two KT88..or 6550s ... i have biger tube amps OTLs.an others..... but the best sound i have got yet is from two output tube....
To Day i am driving a pr of the 16"x 48" ML panels That i have re-done these Are the
Prodigy...an can fill a room 18'x26'x14' to the top an over into the 18'x40' open space...with two output tube per amp....
But i have found there is also a way to get better sound an more output by using the Praimay side of the ESLs Setpup transfourmer centap to feed part of the input to the panels ... with it own crossover...has anyone looket at this??...
MX...have fun hohoho
When i do get the Licron Chrystal ....i well not be spraying it on...spraying has to add unwoanted wate to the mylar...i am abel to get better high frc...from just puting on by hand vary lite coates...
.An after all my work with ESLs is to get Max output of the panels...i drive all my panels with tube amps with only two KT88..or 6550s ... i have biger tube amps OTLs.an others..... but the best sound i have got yet is from two output tube....
To Day i am driving a pr of the 16"x 48" ML panels That i have re-done these Are the
Prodigy...an can fill a room 18'x26'x14' to the top an over into the 18'x40' open space...with two output tube per amp....
But i have found there is also a way to get better sound an more output by using the Praimay side of the ESLs Setpup transfourmer centap to feed part of the input to the panels ... with it own crossover...has anyone looket at this??...
MX...have fun hohoho
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Hello Lukas [Bazukaz],
NO, actually I left the wrinkles as you could see.
At the time I took the pictures I didn't yet know if the panels could play musing again, so I didn't care of those.
However, now that you noticed me that, I will open again the panels and I will do my best to remove all the wrinkles.
But... so far and at the sound level I play, I couldn't hear any problem of buzzing or harsh.
Many thanks for the suggestion
Have a great week-end.
Regards, Andrea
NO, actually I left the wrinkles as you could see.
At the time I took the pictures I didn't yet know if the panels could play musing again, so I didn't care of those.
However, now that you noticed me that, I will open again the panels and I will do my best to remove all the wrinkles.
But... so far and at the sound level I play, I couldn't hear any problem of buzzing or harsh.
Many thanks for the suggestion
Have a great week-end.
Regards, Andrea
Hi AndreaT,
A very thin film can be used as long as it can be sufficiently tensioned so does not collapse to the stator. Sonic difference between 6u and 2u is very small IMO. More possible output should be expected from 6u film as it can handle higher bias voltage without sticking to the stator from electrostatic force.
You can test for buzzing or rattling noises by using a tone generator program at moderate listening levels. It might be not very obvious while listening to music.
One more point : from your picture is looks like you have used some tape to glue the film. If its double sided tape then only some exceptionally strong types do work well, others tend to creep and lose grip over time. If that's just one sided tape then in addition to unknown long term stability you can also expect noises while the film touches spacer while vibrating.
I would be extremely surprised if your speakers don't produce audible noises while running a sine sweep. But who knows
Regards,
Lukas.
A very thin film can be used as long as it can be sufficiently tensioned so does not collapse to the stator. Sonic difference between 6u and 2u is very small IMO. More possible output should be expected from 6u film as it can handle higher bias voltage without sticking to the stator from electrostatic force.
You can test for buzzing or rattling noises by using a tone generator program at moderate listening levels. It might be not very obvious while listening to music.
One more point : from your picture is looks like you have used some tape to glue the film. If its double sided tape then only some exceptionally strong types do work well, others tend to creep and lose grip over time. If that's just one sided tape then in addition to unknown long term stability you can also expect noises while the film touches spacer while vibrating.
I would be extremely surprised if your speakers don't produce audible noises while running a sine sweep. But who knows
Regards,
Lukas.
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Hi Lukas,
now I understand what you are referring to!
And I can tell you that you probably misunderstood the pictures.
The tapes you see is just use as a mask to avoid the Licron Chrystal to be deposed near the spacers. As per ML original coating process description (exist a movie about) and as stated by others, it is needed to keep a clear gap of about 3cm around the spacers.
So, thaose tapes have been removed after the Licron Chrystal curing.
Along with the tapes removal, also the mylar wrinkles you see there went away!
Those wrinkles were due to the tapes' tensions created by my hand placing and by the solvent in the Licron Chrystal that stressed the tapes.
Actually, the only wrinkles left in my panels are in the cells near the top and bottom, due to the mylar broken during my panels opening.
Regards,
Andrea
now I understand what you are referring to!
And I can tell you that you probably misunderstood the pictures.
The tapes you see is just use as a mask to avoid the Licron Chrystal to be deposed near the spacers. As per ML original coating process description (exist a movie about) and as stated by others, it is needed to keep a clear gap of about 3cm around the spacers.
So, thaose tapes have been removed after the Licron Chrystal curing.
Along with the tapes removal, also the mylar wrinkles you see there went away!
Those wrinkles were due to the tapes' tensions created by my hand placing and by the solvent in the Licron Chrystal that stressed the tapes.
Actually, the only wrinkles left in my panels are in the cells near the top and bottom, due to the mylar broken during my panels opening.
Regards,
Andrea
About mylar thickness: let's go to the physic's roots
Hi Lukas,
may be I misunderstood your post about, but from my knowledge of ESL and physic:
- as lighter is the moving frame as theoretically better performance can be achieved, at least in terms of frequency response extension and linearity.
- any NON DC biased signal, as music is (unless your amplifier has problem), has a signal statistical distribution having a Gaussian curve expressing the power level and is centered around the 0 (zero) level: this means that regardless of the weight of the mylar, its normal/default position is at its Zero level mechanical placement.
So, in conclusion, the mylar shall not have to stick to the stator. If it happens, a problem is present in the system.
Do you agree on what stated so far?
So, why a 2um mylar should not sound better than a 6um?
Thanks in advance for your attention and kind regards,
Andrea
Hi Lukas,
may be I misunderstood your post about, but from my knowledge of ESL and physic:
- as lighter is the moving frame as theoretically better performance can be achieved, at least in terms of frequency response extension and linearity.
- any NON DC biased signal, as music is (unless your amplifier has problem), has a signal statistical distribution having a Gaussian curve expressing the power level and is centered around the 0 (zero) level: this means that regardless of the weight of the mylar, its normal/default position is at its Zero level mechanical placement.
So, in conclusion, the mylar shall not have to stick to the stator. If it happens, a problem is present in the system.
Do you agree on what stated so far?
So, why a 2um mylar should not sound better than a 6um?
Thanks in advance for your attention and kind regards,
Andrea
AndreaT: you got your answer in post #724. You need to have enough tension to keep the diaphragm stable so it always wants to return to the centre position. If you were to use a 1/4mil thick diaphragm then a 1 1/4 inch layer of air on either side of the diaphragm weighs as much as the diaphragm. Thinner films than 6 u does not buy you very much difference in performance and it is difficult to work with and strength becomes an issue. Best regards Moray James.
M logans Mylar...an panels for the most part are VAry Hard to Beat....i bet your panels would have worket with just a cleaning..an new bias feeds...
Not to say that the licn coating is not good...there mylar is setup great...i never have even look at diying my own ESl panels...there just tons of these panels around for low cost...
As Moray has said minny time... we can make better... an i trust him. .....an i think he has done it self...
I like the interface crossover.. bias work my self ...i think it is the key to all ESL Sound...an i have got great output with mods so i let others bild the panels....the new ML panels i have pulled apart 6pr an not one ripet mylar...the older panels befor 2000 were made diff...the new lot ezer to work with...
Also as for the taping off the cross bares.... i saw what ML dose...but i put the coating on all the mylar..... I wont max output..but it work for you... an you just doing one pr... Too day anyway... thats all that matter in you case...good job.. thanks for any an all info on ESLs..Tranfourmer crossover an bias...
MX to all..hoho
Not to say that the licn coating is not good...there mylar is setup great...i never have even look at diying my own ESl panels...there just tons of these panels around for low cost...
As Moray has said minny time... we can make better... an i trust him. .....an i think he has done it self...
I like the interface crossover.. bias work my self ...i think it is the key to all ESL Sound...an i have got great output with mods so i let others bild the panels....the new ML panels i have pulled apart 6pr an not one ripet mylar...the older panels befor 2000 were made diff...the new lot ezer to work with...
Also as for the taping off the cross bares.... i saw what ML dose...but i put the coating on all the mylar..... I wont max output..but it work for you... an you just doing one pr... Too day anyway... thats all that matter in you case...good job.. thanks for any an all info on ESLs..Tranfourmer crossover an bias...
MX to all..hoho
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In practice 6u film already gives you flat up to 20 kHz and perhaps beyond. So in terms of frequency response there will be little difference. I tried 2u vs 6u on the same speaker and did not notice a difference. So now I prefer 6u film based on stability reasons.
No, this is not correct ! Even when there is no any input signal still the diaphragm tends to bend to one of stators slightly. Without sufficient tension is just sticks to one and remains there. We must also remember that there are small irregularities in D/S spacing; coating on one side etc etc. which can bring the system out of stable equilibrium.
Hi Lukas and Moray, thanks for your clarificaitons!
And Tyu, in my case I had to recoat because the problem I had were only related to "no more coat" on the mylar.
I lost about 6 dB on the left panel and even 9 dB on the right one.
Moreover, the high portion of the spectrum went away and I had to put hard EQ compensation, anyway not fixing the problem.
Actually, after coating, the panels are sounding very good.
During the next week I will take time to measure the response and post the results.
Kind regards to all of you
Andrea
And Tyu, in my case I had to recoat because the problem I had were only related to "no more coat" on the mylar.
I lost about 6 dB on the left panel and even 9 dB on the right one.
Moreover, the high portion of the spectrum went away and I had to put hard EQ compensation, anyway not fixing the problem.
Actually, after coating, the panels are sounding very good.
During the next week I will take time to measure the response and post the results.
Kind regards to all of you
Andrea
Good +10dB output level and normal linearity after recoating
Hello Friends,
herein is the frequency response of my Re-coated Sequel II panels, taken at 30 cm on-axis and at the center of each panel.
The panels are directly driven at the high-voltage transformer, the HPF is removed/bypassed in my Sequel because I am using a multi-ampli active xover schema.
The measured frequency responses show that the linearity is matching the legacy (native) response: the 6dB/oct roll-off from 4 kHz is normal for this panel.
So, after the re-coating using the Licron Chrystal, the frequency response didn't change, while the output level improved of about 10 dB (you cannot see from this graph only,... go back to my previous post and compare the levels).
In conclusion, the washing only I don't suggest to anyone, unless the panels are very dirty due to bad maintenance.
Indeed I kindly suggest to re-coat the panels in order to really get back the almost original performance.
Again, thanks to all for the support had so far
Merry Christmas and Happy New Year!
Andrea
Hello Friends,
herein is the frequency response of my Re-coated Sequel II panels, taken at 30 cm on-axis and at the center of each panel.
The panels are directly driven at the high-voltage transformer, the HPF is removed/bypassed in my Sequel because I am using a multi-ampli active xover schema.
The measured frequency responses show that the linearity is matching the legacy (native) response: the 6dB/oct roll-off from 4 kHz is normal for this panel.
So, after the re-coating using the Licron Chrystal, the frequency response didn't change, while the output level improved of about 10 dB (you cannot see from this graph only,... go back to my previous post and compare the levels).
In conclusion, the washing only I don't suggest to anyone, unless the panels are very dirty due to bad maintenance.
Indeed I kindly suggest to re-coat the panels in order to really get back the almost original performance.
Again, thanks to all for the support had so far
Merry Christmas and Happy New Year!
Andrea
Has anyone heard about or tried this coating?
For high conductive coatings Clevios™ PH 1000 or its ready to use formulation, Clevios™ FE-T can be used. These materials offer not only high conductivities but also exceptional levels of transparency.
A conductivity of 900-1000 S/cm (approx. 200 Ohm /sq) can be reached by using Clevios™ PH 1000
Thanks Al
For high conductive coatings Clevios™ PH 1000 or its ready to use formulation, Clevios™ FE-T can be used. These materials offer not only high conductivities but also exceptional levels of transparency.
A conductivity of 900-1000 S/cm (approx. 200 Ohm /sq) can be reached by using Clevios™ PH 1000
Thanks Al
200 ohms per square is a conductor for your diaphragm you need a very high resistance even a gig ohm is not too high. If you can ask about diluting to achieve a small fraction of this given value that would be ok see what they say about some sort of solvent dilution of the product. You never know it might be possible. What kinds of substrates is this product intended for? Ask the manufacturer specifically if the product will bond to a mylar (polyester) surface with a surface tension of 45 dynes per cm. squared. That's a tough one, that's much smoother than polished plate glass. Even a normal felt marker won't work on that smooth a surface because there is not enough surface tension for the ink to get a grip. Let us know what they say.
I had some results which were very good with a couple of ultra high polish detailer type car products designed specifically for polyester top coats. Sorry I cant recall the type I got the samples from a customer who ownes a paint shop for very high end vehicles. That might be a direction to look into. Let us know what you find out. Best regards Moray James.
Well, the price quote of pedot based material by the company mentioned above was, to put it politely, outrageous: something like 10^4 per liter
If the screen size is like 25 in sq it's probably ok, taking into account the final application.
It was 3 years ago, though, things might of changed.
In regard to adhesion PET is specifically mentioned in datasheet.
Presence of DMSO brings some hope as well.
Dilution of such high conductance material may kill the adhesion.
If the screen size is like 25 in sq it's probably ok, taking into account the final application.
It was 3 years ago, though, things might of changed.
In regard to adhesion PET is specifically mentioned in datasheet.
Presence of DMSO brings some hope as well.
Dilution of such high conductance material may kill the adhesion.
Look i can get the techspray LC Shipt to my house for $45.US.... that about 8 16"X48" panels are more....help me out here...
What the DOWN side to LC coating???..........
I have the low cost way for me to go with the Turtle wax F21SP...one of these well do 3-400 panels for $2.99 ....an i have even put some Graphite in some of this...Wow.......But i got to get the LC....
is it that LC is a spay....
Thanks for any an all info on ESLs
What the DOWN side to LC coating???..........
I have the low cost way for me to go with the Turtle wax F21SP...one of these well do 3-400 panels for $2.99 ....an i have even put some Graphite in some of this...Wow.......But i got to get the LC....
is it that LC is a spay....
Thanks for any an all info on ESLs
Well I have 5 gal pail of staticide 6300, use it to polish the lino floors here, yes I have grounded floors. But I will take TYU's advice and get the Licron crystal spray, as it's proven performer. I also have a roll of 6um c mylar 24"w x 125' long, plus also elvamide, thats what they used on the Infinity servo statics that seen voltages of 25k, so when delivered here am set to go Al
Al
Well I have 5 gal pail of staticide 6300, use it to polish the lino floors here, yes I have grounded floors. But I will take TYU's advice and get the Licron crystal spray, as it's proven performer. I also have a roll of 6um c mylar 24"w x 125' long, plus also elvamide, thats what they used on the Infinity servo statics that seen voltages of 25k, so when delivered here am set to go
Since you've got both on avail, can you let us know in terms of resistance per thickness and ease of application?
Would not you expect that the durability of coating that stands against wear and tear on the floor should be unsurpassable...
P.S. Would you paint your car using aerosol cans?