The title of the thread specify "with V/I limiter "
which is not the case, since this circuit isn t functionnal yet,
according to your own sayings..
That s selling the bear s skin before even killing him...
Anyway, that validate the view of those who pointed
that the design is not mature enough for unexperimented
people to build it without eventual failures when tested.
Thread tittle cannot be changed, the amplifier has not V/I limiter anymore
also cannot put out 1 Kilowatt....only consumption to each channel.
Amplifier evoluted...now it is different and playing rigth now..you should be listening..well.... would be dancing in the reality...it rocks!
regards,
Carlos
also cannot put out 1 Kilowatt....only consumption to each channel.
Amplifier evoluted...now it is different and playing rigth now..you should be listening..well.... would be dancing in the reality...it rocks!
regards,
Carlos
wahab ....most of the time when ever i see that you are posting i "run" to see your post cause always something good comes out of ...well not this time...... since you know i like you very much let me explain this a bit more ...
take a look at me
at 44 i have constructed almost 250 amps of various power from 50 to 500w most of them lasted for ages since well constructed...then again i have repaired another couple of thousand amplifier since this 50% of my job ...the other 50% is rent the amps i have bought or constructed and push them to the absolute limmit each and every day notice that so far i havent design any amplifier cause my theory and maths is poor
Look at DrBora
an inovative designer with deep knowledge that focus on making good amps ( i think he manages pretty well ) but his amps ( as stated ) are not idiot proof ... probably some other designer with idiot proof talends has to add something to dr Bora's amps to achive both
look at uncle Charly
a working machine !!! the man is working non stop for the best BUT !!! he will never push his amp to the limit for hours inside a club, i will do though an then tell him what i found and he will do things needed as usual to make even more perfect
So forum should be about friendly joined force ... i will share with une Charly ...you will share with me ... and goes one like that ....
can you add to the discussion an inovative limiter that will have as less affect on the sound ???? that will be progress ....
Friendly regards sakis
take a look at me
at 44 i have constructed almost 250 amps of various power from 50 to 500w most of them lasted for ages since well constructed...then again i have repaired another couple of thousand amplifier since this 50% of my job ...the other 50% is rent the amps i have bought or constructed and push them to the absolute limmit each and every day notice that so far i havent design any amplifier cause my theory and maths is poor
Look at DrBora
an inovative designer with deep knowledge that focus on making good amps ( i think he manages pretty well ) but his amps ( as stated ) are not idiot proof ... probably some other designer with idiot proof talends has to add something to dr Bora's amps to achive both
look at uncle Charly
a working machine !!! the man is working non stop for the best BUT !!! he will never push his amp to the limit for hours inside a club, i will do though an then tell him what i found and he will do things needed as usual to make even more perfect
So forum should be about friendly joined force ... i will share with une Charly ...you will share with me ... and goes one like that ....
can you add to the discussion an inovative limiter that will have as less affect on the sound ???? that will be progress ....
Friendly regards sakis
Hi, Carlos and Sakis...
Well , i m not afraid about Carlos, since he have enough
experience to handle those beasts on their limit.
What is a concern is that many people by there
have not your experiences in these matters and
are unlikely to have all the usual reflexes than
an experienced builder has when handling such
dangeourous items.
cheers,
wahab
Well , i m not afraid about Carlos, since he have enough
experience to handle those beasts on their limit.
What is a concern is that many people by there
have not your experiences in these matters and
are unlikely to have all the usual reflexes than
an experienced builder has when handling such
dangeourous items.
cheers,
wahab
So, dear Wahab....you have the schematic.... was published.
Then, i you want to help us the way we believe..then suggest a limiter......but a simple one, because there's no room in the board to several transistors more, several parts more.
I am watching this one limiting..it is clipping the wave form...so...not perfect because the voltage is limited but current can increase as we go increasing the flat top in the sinusoidal signal...so...the DC time is increased...in a lower level of voltage..but increasing current timing.
I do think this protection i am using is reasonable...and it is in Rodd pages, also in Doctor Self pages.
I will not include chips and complicated things..if you can produce a schematic, a limiter,and post your suggestion as a "try to cooperate".... then we gonna be happy...but i have to say...i cannot guarantee i will use it...but i will take a close look, will simulate and may assemble to try and see the effect.
I have several books and several circuits...and they are not too much different compared to this one i am using.... i have suspections your worries may be exagerated.....observe transistors are working very confortable with lessa than 800 miliamps each one of them...and 80 volts that will drop to 70 maybe....so...they are running in a very confortable way...i do not think the amplifier is dangerous or it would be burned during my tests.... audio amplifier works more in average.... it will not be amplifying steady tones....will not operate alike a radio frequency transmitter..that has a contant level carrier..it will work with 70 volts and 400 miliamperes..and this is reasonable for 4 ohms load and of a single power transistor (28 Watts average!)
Also, i would like to say, once again, that i do not want to make the best academic work ever made...the most precise electronic device or anything alike...i am DIY, and i do not want to behave as an engineer because this is not my dream..not my target...i want to continue to be uncle charlie.
The amplifier aproved, tested, and ready to go...and it is not the first page amplifier anymore..have suffered several small adjustments.
I am not asking you something alike Andrew T did.... showing the steps and procedure of analisis...i want the job done..the schematic made..ready to go.
This one i may try..but this is not a promisse...because i cannot accept to be remote controlled by anyone and anywere...no way to people say "do it" and i move to do it..will be awfuill..i will be working without stop trying ideas from others!.....it is not my style...i do by myself, following my instints and practice experience that started 50 years ago...but really....i have abolished the V/I limiter as a bad feature fourty years ago..so...i am not skilled about V/I limiter as i do not use to build it...i do not like..do not think it is good for sonics..was made because of Sakis...and if you really want to know...if this continues..say..people criticising without post options (ready to go) then i will remove them from the amplifier...as i am already having regrets to use it... it is generating me troubles, people around saying the amplifier is unsafe when i have tested and it is NOT unsafe.
So, as a conclusion, if a good suggestion does not appear in the next couple of days..them i will remove the limiter, as it is creating me troubles, in the place to enjoy watching people building i am posting things about the limiter...something i do not believe, i do not like..i have made for Sakis... and he looks not too much interested....my dear friend and brother Sakis was invited to make the layout...delayed so much....have not made... Alexmm entered and solved the problem.... i had not the need to ask Alexandru.... when my close friend have not moved because busy.
So, dear Alexandru!...hold on for a couple of days..we gonna have a new limiter or we gonna remove it.
regards,
Carlos Eugênio
Then, i you want to help us the way we believe..then suggest a limiter......but a simple one, because there's no room in the board to several transistors more, several parts more.
I am watching this one limiting..it is clipping the wave form...so...not perfect because the voltage is limited but current can increase as we go increasing the flat top in the sinusoidal signal...so...the DC time is increased...in a lower level of voltage..but increasing current timing.
I do think this protection i am using is reasonable...and it is in Rodd pages, also in Doctor Self pages.
I will not include chips and complicated things..if you can produce a schematic, a limiter,and post your suggestion as a "try to cooperate".... then we gonna be happy...but i have to say...i cannot guarantee i will use it...but i will take a close look, will simulate and may assemble to try and see the effect.
I have several books and several circuits...and they are not too much different compared to this one i am using.... i have suspections your worries may be exagerated.....observe transistors are working very confortable with lessa than 800 miliamps each one of them...and 80 volts that will drop to 70 maybe....so...they are running in a very confortable way...i do not think the amplifier is dangerous or it would be burned during my tests.... audio amplifier works more in average.... it will not be amplifying steady tones....will not operate alike a radio frequency transmitter..that has a contant level carrier..it will work with 70 volts and 400 miliamperes..and this is reasonable for 4 ohms load and of a single power transistor (28 Watts average!)
Also, i would like to say, once again, that i do not want to make the best academic work ever made...the most precise electronic device or anything alike...i am DIY, and i do not want to behave as an engineer because this is not my dream..not my target...i want to continue to be uncle charlie.
The amplifier aproved, tested, and ready to go...and it is not the first page amplifier anymore..have suffered several small adjustments.
I am not asking you something alike Andrew T did.... showing the steps and procedure of analisis...i want the job done..the schematic made..ready to go.
This one i may try..but this is not a promisse...because i cannot accept to be remote controlled by anyone and anywere...no way to people say "do it" and i move to do it..will be awfuill..i will be working without stop trying ideas from others!.....it is not my style...i do by myself, following my instints and practice experience that started 50 years ago...but really....i have abolished the V/I limiter as a bad feature fourty years ago..so...i am not skilled about V/I limiter as i do not use to build it...i do not like..do not think it is good for sonics..was made because of Sakis...and if you really want to know...if this continues..say..people criticising without post options (ready to go) then i will remove them from the amplifier...as i am already having regrets to use it... it is generating me troubles, people around saying the amplifier is unsafe when i have tested and it is NOT unsafe.
So, as a conclusion, if a good suggestion does not appear in the next couple of days..them i will remove the limiter, as it is creating me troubles, in the place to enjoy watching people building i am posting things about the limiter...something i do not believe, i do not like..i have made for Sakis... and he looks not too much interested....my dear friend and brother Sakis was invited to make the layout...delayed so much....have not made... Alexmm entered and solved the problem.... i had not the need to ask Alexandru.... when my close friend have not moved because busy.
So, dear Alexandru!...hold on for a couple of days..we gonna have a new limiter or we gonna remove it.
regards,
Carlos Eugênio
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Moderators... please, analise if we can change the thread title
to:
" Dx Troyan, a 650 watts amplifier "
A lot of modifications was done...now a days it is not 1 kilowatt anymore, also the V/I limiter is not understood as V/I limiter and may be replaced or removed.
So...the new tittle would be better.
Thank you in advance by your kindness.
regards,
Carlos
to:
" Dx Troyan, a 650 watts amplifier "
A lot of modifications was done...now a days it is not 1 kilowatt anymore, also the V/I limiter is not understood as V/I limiter and may be replaced or removed.
So...the new tittle would be better.
Thank you in advance by your kindness.
regards,
Carlos
650 watts is smoking
Carlos,
The 650 watt output is still substantally more than most of the projects. What are you suggesting for rail voltages now?
Would the frontend benefit from a 5 volt increase as in so many other amps?
Do you think it is at all possible to make the limiter somewhat adjustable? It might better suit my needs. I never know what I will connect to the output.
Salas, That was quick. Do you moderators read all of the posts?
Tad
Carlos,
The 650 watt output is still substantally more than most of the projects. What are you suggesting for rail voltages now?
Would the frontend benefit from a 5 volt increase as in so many other amps?
Do you think it is at all possible to make the limiter somewhat adjustable? It might better suit my needs. I never know what I will connect to the output.
Salas, That was quick. Do you moderators read all of the posts?
Tad
I do not want to make any intervention, as this is Carlos thread and he might take it different than I mean it.
Anyway, the crucial are number of pairs (known type of devices), type of load, supply voltage and SOA.
If the design is able to withstand 2 ohm complex load, i.e. it has enough reserve in the SOA (enough pairs of rugged devices in other words), I would not care about the V/I limiter. However, DC monitoring and protection is highly recommended to save expensive speakers.
SOA might be verified like in the attached image, for the complex load. All the curves in the upper graph must lie under device appropriate SOA curve. The lower graph shows instant power.
Anyway, the crucial are number of pairs (known type of devices), type of load, supply voltage and SOA.
If the design is able to withstand 2 ohm complex load, i.e. it has enough reserve in the SOA (enough pairs of rugged devices in other words), I would not care about the V/I limiter. However, DC monitoring and protection is highly recommended to save expensive speakers.
SOA might be verified like in the attached image, for the complex load. All the curves in the upper graph must lie under device appropriate SOA curve. The lower graph shows instant power.
Attachments
Thank you Pavel, i will be at the safe side...only 4 ohms
considering that some 4 ohms loads are not really 4 ohms.. when we go increasing power we will have the need of protections..this is not appreciated..so..i will keep lower power as this will avoid protections and will reduce costs for builders...a more executable amplifier.... will have more guys with interest.
Other folks may produce their own versions, with limiters, maybe off set error correction with chips and other features...let them work too..i have made some...let them develop the unit, opening new threads with their own versions having more safety sub circuits.
The voltage now was reduced to 80V and 10 output pairs are used.
I am enjoying the sound rigth now.
Tryon.... will not modify voltage... will let it the way it is now.
Decisions will be taken to use a better limiter or to remove them...anything more will be done.
Alexandru will change compensation capacitor value and will remove something at the feedback line too.
This amplifier already took me a lot of time, because i have started it several monthes ago...then i have tested and my memory is so bad now a days that i forgot a lot of things and i have to study all the stuff back again.
It is time to have a break, to offer final schematic soon and to stop for a couple of monthes as i have to take care of my health.
I am thinking about the next amplifier..so..it is time to close this one.
As soon we decide the limiter, then i will close and may open another thread, the builder's thread..where i will help people to build if appear people interested.
There's some work to do... adjustments and feed Greg Erskine home pages..also to produce another thread, will less posts, having all basic needed informations together the same place... this thread is long and had modifications..the first schematic is not the same we have now..so..it is time to let it go to the Troyan memories.... and start the builders thread to see some guys building and posting pictures...will not be too many interested folks, the amplifier is expensive..but one or two will be good enougth.
regards,
Carlos
considering that some 4 ohms loads are not really 4 ohms.. when we go increasing power we will have the need of protections..this is not appreciated..so..i will keep lower power as this will avoid protections and will reduce costs for builders...a more executable amplifier.... will have more guys with interest.
Other folks may produce their own versions, with limiters, maybe off set error correction with chips and other features...let them work too..i have made some...let them develop the unit, opening new threads with their own versions having more safety sub circuits.
The voltage now was reduced to 80V and 10 output pairs are used.
I am enjoying the sound rigth now.
Tryon.... will not modify voltage... will let it the way it is now.
Decisions will be taken to use a better limiter or to remove them...anything more will be done.
Alexandru will change compensation capacitor value and will remove something at the feedback line too.
This amplifier already took me a lot of time, because i have started it several monthes ago...then i have tested and my memory is so bad now a days that i forgot a lot of things and i have to study all the stuff back again.
It is time to have a break, to offer final schematic soon and to stop for a couple of monthes as i have to take care of my health.
I am thinking about the next amplifier..so..it is time to close this one.
As soon we decide the limiter, then i will close and may open another thread, the builder's thread..where i will help people to build if appear people interested.
There's some work to do... adjustments and feed Greg Erskine home pages..also to produce another thread, will less posts, having all basic needed informations together the same place... this thread is long and had modifications..the first schematic is not the same we have now..so..it is time to let it go to the Troyan memories.... and start the builders thread to see some guys building and posting pictures...will not be too many interested folks, the amplifier is expensive..but one or two will be good enougth.
regards,
Carlos
I'm having fun listening...i have made some "tuning" and i am enjoying
now sonics are much better as i have changed something in the feedback and lag compensation too.
Here is a sample...do not expect something awsome, as digital cameras does not make awsome recordings..and my high quality microphones saturates easy with powerfull amplifiers.
YouTube - A Troyan sample
YouTube - Troyan sample
regards,
Carlos
now sonics are much better as i have changed something in the feedback and lag compensation too.
Here is a sample...do not expect something awsome, as digital cameras does not make awsome recordings..and my high quality microphones saturates easy with powerfull amplifiers.
YouTube - A Troyan sample
YouTube - Troyan sample
regards,
Carlos
Attachments
The schematic was published Black...go back and you will find it
Modifications that will be made to the last schematic:
Removal of R94 and C12
Substitution of C7 by a 150pF Silver Mica capacitor
R29 adjusted to 33 ohms (a trimpot)...for symetrical clipping
The protection (T18 and T19) may be substituded or removed soon
regards,
Carlos
Modifications that will be made to the last schematic:
Removal of R94 and C12
Substitution of C7 by a 150pF Silver Mica capacitor
R29 adjusted to 33 ohms (a trimpot)...for symetrical clipping
The protection (T18 and T19) may be substituded or removed soon
regards,
Carlos
I would suggest one voltage rating for minimum 4ohm load, "PA verison"
and another voltage rating for 2ohm load, "hifi version"
Though, today I think 4ohm is an outdated standard, and even many new PA amps are designed and built to be reliable in 2ohm
Please note that this doesnt mean it should be used for 2ohm load
But it means that its reliable when impredance dips below 4ohm
Or they are reliable when used bridged
Point is that once you use double paralel woofers, MTM mid section etc, then its not unsual to end with a 3ohm speaker
and very many single drivers may have just 4ohm nominal, which could result in a 3ohm speaker
I think Pavel's point is that amps stable in 2ohm load are reliable without limiter/protection, in the real world
Where as amps that are stable only to 4ohm have much more limitations
Mind you, very many 8 ohm speaker designs are really only 4-5 ohm
Mind you, Pavel also said complex load, and not just resistive load
If you want to cope with modern speaker design and have quality sound, then you need amps that are happy with 2ohm, and complex load
Wattage is really cheap these days
Its pointless if you can buy plug and play cheaper than parts cost
Some even have built in active dsp, at low cost
But really good quality high power hifi amps are not cheap
and another voltage rating for 2ohm load, "hifi version"
Though, today I think 4ohm is an outdated standard, and even many new PA amps are designed and built to be reliable in 2ohm
Please note that this doesnt mean it should be used for 2ohm load
But it means that its reliable when impredance dips below 4ohm
Or they are reliable when used bridged
Point is that once you use double paralel woofers, MTM mid section etc, then its not unsual to end with a 3ohm speaker
and very many single drivers may have just 4ohm nominal, which could result in a 3ohm speaker
I think Pavel's point is that amps stable in 2ohm load are reliable without limiter/protection, in the real world
Where as amps that are stable only to 4ohm have much more limitations
Mind you, very many 8 ohm speaker designs are really only 4-5 ohm
Mind you, Pavel also said complex load, and not just resistive load
If you want to cope with modern speaker design and have quality sound, then you need amps that are happy with 2ohm, and complex load
Wattage is really cheap these days
Its pointless if you can buy plug and play cheaper than parts cost
Some even have built in active dsp, at low cost
But really good quality high power hifi amps are not cheap
Troyan to 2 ohms loads.... it can put out around 900 watts
when using 70V supplies.... less than one ampere to each transistor, seems it can handle..but power dissipation of 70 watts to each one seems dangerous.
Maybe 60 volts will be more safe..and the power will be around 700 watts RMS over 2 ohms in a such condition.... and dissipation to each power will drop to 55 watts aproximatelly.
Some small modifications made.... limiter removed, gain resistance tweaked, and power emitter resistances reduced to 0.22 ohms as the output impedance is low and we will not need the voltage previously needed to drive the protection circuit.
I cannot try... as i have not supply able to put out all that power...so i cannot check real like in a such low impedance load.
We can manage a sligthly higher voltage to operate with 8 ohms too.
I cannot guarantee the survival, as i have not tested, i have not that power transformer in my home...because of that i am not sure.... seems may survive, depending how good are the heatsinks and fan blower applied..but i am not absolutelly sure.
regards,
Carlos
when using 70V supplies.... less than one ampere to each transistor, seems it can handle..but power dissipation of 70 watts to each one seems dangerous.
Maybe 60 volts will be more safe..and the power will be around 700 watts RMS over 2 ohms in a such condition.... and dissipation to each power will drop to 55 watts aproximatelly.
Some small modifications made.... limiter removed, gain resistance tweaked, and power emitter resistances reduced to 0.22 ohms as the output impedance is low and we will not need the voltage previously needed to drive the protection circuit.
I cannot try... as i have not supply able to put out all that power...so i cannot check real like in a such low impedance load.
We can manage a sligthly higher voltage to operate with 8 ohms too.
I cannot guarantee the survival, as i have not tested, i have not that power transformer in my home...because of that i am not sure.... seems may survive, depending how good are the heatsinks and fan blower applied..but i am not absolutelly sure.
regards,
Carlos
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I have simulated to 1 ohm...someone asked that once
and i am surprised with the THD...very low (0.008%) at 625 Watts.
Each transistor will dissipate around 60 watts.... it may be possible.
Supply is 50 volts symetrical but 11 amperes to each rail... a very huge supply.
I am unable to check that...no dummy load to this power...no power transformer..i cannot do it..only simulate and check in the datasheet...looks good..but guarantee?.... this i cannot give you...as i give guarantee to tested amplifiers.
Modification is only to switch off protection removing the transistors and tweak the gain resistance that gonna be something around 1200 ohms.... it will put out minimum of 625 watts..in the real world will be able to produce more power.... depending, of course, as always, from your supply... a kilowatt supply to each channel is needed to produce 600 watts of audio in this amplifier (aprox.)
regards,
Carlos
and i am surprised with the THD...very low (0.008%) at 625 Watts.
Each transistor will dissipate around 60 watts.... it may be possible.
Supply is 50 volts symetrical but 11 amperes to each rail... a very huge supply.
I am unable to check that...no dummy load to this power...no power transformer..i cannot do it..only simulate and check in the datasheet...looks good..but guarantee?.... this i cannot give you...as i give guarantee to tested amplifiers.
Modification is only to switch off protection removing the transistors and tweak the gain resistance that gonna be something around 1200 ohms.... it will put out minimum of 625 watts..in the real world will be able to produce more power.... depending, of course, as always, from your supply... a kilowatt supply to each channel is needed to produce 600 watts of audio in this amplifier (aprox.)
regards,
Carlos
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High quality music, high resolution recordings
I am using FLAC....here you have free download:
Ryan Adams Live at Das Haus on 2006-10-17 : Free Download & Streaming : Internet Archive
regards,
Carlos
I am using FLAC....here you have free download:
Ryan Adams Live at Das Haus on 2006-10-17 : Free Download & Streaming : Internet Archive
regards,
Carlos
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