Well Dave, if you're going to be cheeky about it!
I wasn't going to redefine the parameters of what we are comparing, since I thought we'd gone through all that already. The wires vs. no-wire argument is brilliant and very zen. However it also applies to any piece of kit which might or might not be missing in the chain.
Oxidized wire, vs. wire in proper operating condition is also not part of the debate. You aren't going to start your car either, if the wire and terminals are too oxidzed, so you might as well consider it more akin to no wire at all.
And finally comparing vastly different guages isn't really the point either, since the debate very early on was considering wire of "sufficient guage" for current carrying ability. What you are describing has more in common with a fuse, than a speaker cable.
So now that you've required me to point out what I made the mistake of assuming was the obvious I come to the part where you quote me out of context:
Diminishing returns applies to practically ANY pursuit, however in the case of $40 vs. $4000 speaker cables my question would be were is the cost vs. benefit threshold reasonably set? A personal choice for sure, but for me it would be at approx. $40....
I wasn't going to redefine the parameters of what we are comparing, since I thought we'd gone through all that already. The wires vs. no-wire argument is brilliant and very zen. However it also applies to any piece of kit which might or might not be missing in the chain.
Oxidized wire, vs. wire in proper operating condition is also not part of the debate. You aren't going to start your car either, if the wire and terminals are too oxidzed, so you might as well consider it more akin to no wire at all.
And finally comparing vastly different guages isn't really the point either, since the debate very early on was considering wire of "sufficient guage" for current carrying ability. What you are describing has more in common with a fuse, than a speaker cable.
So now that you've required me to point out what I made the mistake of assuming was the obvious I come to the part where you quote me out of context:
Diminishing returns applies to practically ANY pursuit, however in the case of $40 vs. $4000 speaker cables my question would be were is the cost vs. benefit threshold reasonably set? A personal choice for sure, but for me it would be at approx. $40....
here:
http://www.hifiaktiv.at/diverses/re...men/realistische_betrachtungen_blindtests.htm
Its in german only,
a rough an short translation: between two different cd players there where clearly discernible differences that were consistent between testees.
He also states that those differences between players were rather small, the most expensive one, evaluated the "better", being an accuphase.
Not a strictly scientific test, done by a dealer of some costly equipment.
Panicos K said:
No argument, Panicos.
I was not at all indicating that such a sample is OK, simply that there were certain examples that showed what matters and what not, contrary to some of the glib and very informed sounding statements by some. E.g. charge-retention in the di-electricum, minute gas bubbles, surface effect, metal-isolation boundries, burning in, electron relaxation effect and goodness knows what.
We are talking of audio and practical domestic dimensions all the time (to repeat ad nausiam), where none of the above parameters have the remotest relevance. (There is even doubt as to the so-called "oxygen-free" condition of many cables.)
Hey all,
I just went back to the beginning of the thread and , as predicted, we're obviously no closer to concensus.
I was brought into the discussion to defend some measurements I made of Cat5 years ago. I learned some things about those measurements, as well as Cat5 that I can incorporate into my future endeavours (jneutron and jdf, in particular come to mind, thanks!).
I have Planet10 to thank for introducing me to this, and our mutual friend ChrisB I'm sure continues to lurk... I respect both of those guys enormously (even though we often disagree) they know their stuff! I just don't always think it's "non-fiction"
It appears this thread is starting to turn back and eat itself, so I think I'm going to book out, and stop wasting so much time on it. With a 3.5 year old, and a 2 year old nipping at my heels, I have higher priorities than any audio gear right now!
BTW, children DO make a difference to how good your high end system sounds....it sounds much like the "no speaker cable" option mentioned a few times here.
It's been a slice, and you might see Macgyver10 pop up again in the forums, but not likely in "cabletalk".....Heil AMT drivers maybe? If I can get my hands on a pair....
I just went back to the beginning of the thread and , as predicted, we're obviously no closer to concensus.
I was brought into the discussion to defend some measurements I made of Cat5 years ago. I learned some things about those measurements, as well as Cat5 that I can incorporate into my future endeavours (jneutron and jdf, in particular come to mind, thanks!).
I have Planet10 to thank for introducing me to this, and our mutual friend ChrisB I'm sure continues to lurk... I respect both of those guys enormously (even though we often disagree) they know their stuff! I just don't always think it's "non-fiction"
It appears this thread is starting to turn back and eat itself, so I think I'm going to book out, and stop wasting so much time on it. With a 3.5 year old, and a 2 year old nipping at my heels, I have higher priorities than any audio gear right now!
BTW, children DO make a difference to how good your high end system sounds....it sounds much like the "no speaker cable" option mentioned a few times here.
It's been a slice, and you might see Macgyver10 pop up again in the forums, but not likely in "cabletalk".....Heil AMT drivers maybe? If I can get my hands on a pair....
audio-kraut said:
So my "carefully" prepared 2 separated strands of solid OFC 24g Cat 5 don't qualify as speaker cable?
That's like saying everyone can vote (but not if they are femaie).
It also sounds like a whole bevy of speaker cables are being discarded from the population, because "they couldn't possibly sound as good"?
dave
macgyver10 said:
Of course not. On one side we have "flat-earther" engineer types who can't conceive that speaker wire could have that much if any effect (and when faced with a concrete example, will discard a member of the population from the sample), and on the other (not many here), la-la-land hear-it-alls who seem more interested in fashion, and are perfectly happy spending vast quantities on speaker cable, and would be quite upset to find that they weren't really better.
The truth, as is usually the case, is somewhere in between. Do speaker cables make any difference? Darn rights they do. Are the differences night & day? In extreme cases, yes, in many (most?) cases, no. There is little correlation of quality to cable cost, and cables are very system dependent.
Some cables cause some amps to do things they shouldn't. Some suggest that the amp is inadequate. I say, consider it the system it is, and use the cable that is synergistic with it.
We also discussed the veracity of a well-known blind test. There were at least a couple posts that clearly & scientifically explained that this test was not very good (that bit should really be split off into its own thread)
In the end, all that matters is "Are you enjoying the music?"
dave
how do you arrive at this conclusion, planet 10 (I guess you have to take some action, not being considered one anymore)?
I only said that for me #16 zip - which I have used w/o sound degradation between a quad amp and some kef speakers - could be sufficient. I am using myself canare 4S11 in my mainsystem.
I did not say that any other wire wouldn't be of use - only for me zip cord in some instances is just all I need.
audio-kraut said:
I was asking where the cut-off was, and you threw out 16g and i grabbed it. My speaker cables have been reinstated to reality?
planet10 is the home of the 'lectroids, and lives on in the movie that gestated it (Buckaroo Banzai, Across the 8th dimension)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Adventures_of_Buckaroo_Banzai_Across_the_8th_Dimension
An externally hosted image should be here but it was not working when we last tested it.
dave
Johan,from discussions I had with cable manufacturers I can tell you that they say a strand is oxygen free at the time it comes out of the dyes and has to be insulated almost instantly if it is to be OFC.True,many don't insulate them in time and when they do after some time,they are not OFC anymore.
Painkiller said:
Yes -- but what about the Id? Mine has been giving me a lot of trouble lately. Do you think if the Ego is left aside the Id will rise to take its place? Will we be able to tell the difference? In a blind test, of course. Blind drunk, better yet.
Which reminds me of a beer bar in Ybor City, Florida. There was a big sign behind the bar that said:
"No ID, No Beer."
Wonder if Freud used to drink there?
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