SY said:
Gee SY, I actually used to like you!
Ummm... not all amps - that being ALL amplifiers in the entire world! - but used as a short hand, as in "all amps", referring to the oft quoted assertion (paraphrased, although slightly shorter than the full text version...) " all properly made and operated, not clipped amplifiers...etc".
As far as what the earstwhile Tom Noisaine has to say, I'd say after debating him
on rahe some years back that he does indeed subscribe to the "all amps" theory/belief/dogma/philosophy (pick one). So do many others... you? How about you?I think on the basis of your comments in thread, you are not with them.
But you are not in a camp, you are out there - somewhere...
I think that's another, albiet related topic?
But do you think that audible differences do/will have "easily measurable and predictable causes"??
Is everything audible able to be put in "reductionist, materialist engineering, and that those oxen-with-pocket-protectors who get published in JAES" terms or not?
Your view is??
Inquiring minds want to know!!
_-_-bear
planet10 said:
Yeah, the 405 has a bad rep. I never cared for it.
+/- 50V you might be able to go with a UCD400. I don't think there are any Tripath chips that work with that high a rail voltage. And the single rail of the 303 wouldn't be of much use there either.
The new IcePower boards have a SMPS built in, so no worries. But they are OEM only.
Andre Visser said:
Yeah, gotta agree with Bear and André. Of course we aren't really talking about ALL amps.
We are supposed to be talking about amps that measure "the same" (whatever that is) and within certain power limitations.
So: What is "The Same" as far as amp measurements are concerned? What measurements and under what conditions? Within what tolerances?
Let's please establish that first.
The problem may lie in the commonly published specs. Are they tight enough, comprehensive enough? Done under the right conditions?
If we take 2 amps with published specs that should lead to inaudible differences, will we still hear differences?
As we know, most amps are measured with a steady state signal into a simple load. Is that good enough? Will 2 amps that measure "the same" with steady state signals into a resistive load sound the same with a musical signal into a complex load like a speaker?
I do believe that we can measure a lot of why amps might sound different, but that the most common specs don't tell the whole story. So if we buy 2 amps that have very similar power ratings, THD, FR and maybe even IMD specs, will they sound they same? I doubt it.
And that's the the basic problem. The common published specs don't tell us enough, but that is all we usually have by which to objectively judge amplifiers.
But hey, I could be proved wrong.
Long time ago when money was there I bought a Advantage integrated, the black one with no controls functioning only by remote...a really high class amp that pleased me fore several years
Then I got the diy bug again and hoped to build some better monster amps...sorry to say I chose the LCaudio TheEnd
I was a bit dissapointed by the result as both amps seem to sound only slightly different...and hard to chose one over the other
THEN a few years later I build my present amp, a downscaled 50wattt Mirand...THIS was much better and really high class, and it made my Advantage sound like a toy amp
Now I use the Advantage solely as preamp...which it does very well...it has individual input gain adjustment by remote and other nice features...a TVC is on the wanting list, maybe Promitheus
btw...changing base feets and other ressonanse dampening seem to make a differense
Make your own conclusions
Then I got the diy bug again and hoped to build some better monster amps...sorry to say I chose the LCaudio TheEnd
I was a bit dissapointed by the result as both amps seem to sound only slightly different...and hard to chose one over the other
THEN a few years later I build my present amp, a downscaled 50wattt Mirand...THIS was much better and really high class, and it made my Advantage sound like a toy amp
Now I use the Advantage solely as preamp...which it does very well...it has individual input gain adjustment by remote and other nice features...a TVC is on the wanting list, maybe Promitheus
btw...changing base feets and other ressonanse dampening seem to make a differense
Make your own conclusions
tinitus said:Make your own conclusions
Regrettably rational conclusions cannot be made based on anecdotal evidence. That's why all the ones presented here have essentially been dismissed.
Anecdotal evidence is useful only as an indicator where systematic studies might be useful.
I'll wait for a tasty F. Bacon and let us experiment
Do amplifiers sound?
There is no audible difference at least as long as the load is a resistor or some other dummy load instead of a loudspeaker.
I'm with Gerrit Boers on this question. A dummy load is convenient when you make basic measurements. But the output of an amplifier is not audible without a loudspeaker. It is also true that a loudspeaker load affects to the performance of the amplifier.
My proposal for a scientifically sound test setup would be:
1) Signal source
2) Device under test, in this case an audio amplifier
3) Anechoic room
4) Different but typical high quality loudspeaker loads
5) Microphone on a stand
6) Analyser device
7) Personnel who know how use the test equipment
Changing from an amplifier to another is quicker than changing loudspeakers. Many different amplifiers in a row could be measured with one speaker without need to visit the anechoic room. So the microphone and loudspeaker would stay put, and the results would be most reliable.
Jakob2 said:
There is no audible difference at least as long as the load is a resistor or some other dummy load instead of a loudspeaker.
I'm with Gerrit Boers on this question. A dummy load is convenient when you make basic measurements. But the output of an amplifier is not audible without a loudspeaker. It is also true that a loudspeaker load affects to the performance of the amplifier.
My proposal for a scientifically sound test setup would be:
1) Signal source
2) Device under test, in this case an audio amplifier
3) Anechoic room
4) Different but typical high quality loudspeaker loads
5) Microphone on a stand
6) Analyser device
7) Personnel who know how use the test equipment
Changing from an amplifier to another is quicker than changing loudspeakers. Many different amplifiers in a row could be measured with one speaker without need to visit the anechoic room. So the microphone and loudspeaker would stay put, and the results would be most reliable.
Re: Do amplifiers sound?
Ah..... looks like there is actually progress in this thread.
I suppose that most of use here would agree that the commonly published amp specs are not enough to tell us how an amp sounds. (those who disagree, please speak up).
Is there a set of measurements and tolerances that will allow us to know how an amp sounds?
Or to put it another way, is there a set of measurements in which two amps will measure the same (within a certain tolerance) and sound exactly the same? If so, what are they?
Well some are! Ever heard singing coils, transformers or even transistors?
Ah..... looks like there is actually progress in this thread.
I suppose that most of use here would agree that the commonly published amp specs are not enough to tell us how an amp sounds. (those who disagree, please speak up).
Is there a set of measurements and tolerances that will allow us to know how an amp sounds?
Or to put it another way, is there a set of measurements in which two amps will measure the same (within a certain tolerance) and sound exactly the same? If so, what are they?
Nikolas Ojala said:
Well some are!
Ever heard singing coils, transformers or even transistors?
If the amps are stable, the frequency response and level are matched within 0.1dB with the load connected, THD and IM are below 0.1%, noise is below hearing threshold, and neither amp is clipping, they will not be able to be distinguished by ear in any valid blind testing regime using current methods.
These are pretty conservative numbers- one could probably go higher with most listeners and program material.
I was talking to a fellow about this a few weeks back and we came to a couple of conclusions:
The load an amp is driving is basically the 'sound' of the amplifier)aside from the buzzing when you first turn some of them on). So if you've got a tricky load (big impedance peaks and dips) then some amps will definitely drive them better than other.
And we decided that the measurements must be taken using a static load (through a resistor? I don't know this stuff). Otherwise how could amps that measure the same sound so different through some speakers.
We (OK, I did) decided it's like that old saying...
All amplifiers will sound the same with some speakers,
Some amplifiers will sound the same with all speakers,
But not all amplifiers will sound the same with all speakers.
Humble opinions only :O!
The load an amp is driving is basically the 'sound' of the amplifier
)aside from the buzzing when you first turn some of them on). So if you've got a tricky load (big impedance peaks and dips) then some amps will definitely drive them better than other.And we decided that the measurements must be taken using a static load (through a resistor? I don't know this stuff). Otherwise how could amps that measure the same sound so different through some speakers.
We (OK, I did) decided it's like that old saying...
Abraham Lincoln said:
All amplifiers will sound the same with some speakers,
Some amplifiers will sound the same with all speakers,
But not all amplifiers will sound the same with all speakers.
Humble opinions only :O!
SY said:
OK, there we have good concrete statement. I like it!
(SY, you always fail to disappoint).
From that point we can go forward to testing, if we choose to.
They are indeed. Level matching to within 0.1dB would be what? About 0.04 volts if the match level is 3 volts? That could be touchy.
Of course I have questions about the conditions and parameters of the above mentioned measurements, but I'll save that for later.
There's an extensive literature in JAES; what I stated is extremely well-supported with data, and to date not one listening test in the standard formats (e.g., ABX) has shown anything different. Not a single, solitary one. Probably best to read through the lit before trying to work out a really fancy way of showing that the speed of light really is c or that the earth really is round.
That leaves two possibilities, to which I'd direct your attention and effort in lieu of repeating well-established results.
That leaves two possibilities, to which I'd direct your attention and effort in lieu of repeating well-established results.
Re: Re: Do amplifiers sound?
The amp sounds like any coloration you hear during your loudspeakers/preamp/IC/source players flawless reproduction of the recorded signal.
Not sure how you would know exactly what the electronic signal captured during the recording is supposed to sound like.
cheers,
AJ
panomaniac said:
The amp sounds like any coloration you hear during your loudspeakers/preamp/IC/source players flawless reproduction of the recorded signal.
Not sure how you would know exactly what the electronic signal captured during the recording is supposed to sound like.
cheers,
AJ
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